The marginal WotC 3.5E stuff was showing up more frequently, sometime after mid-2004.  Many of the 3.5E WotC splatbooks which showed up during 2005, 2006, and 2007 were largely of "shit-dumping" variety.

I suppose a big-fish like WotC was able to get away releasing tons of superfluous stuff during those years.  Paizo probably would not be able to get away with such shenanigans.  I can see Paizo's timeline of draining the vein dry, being probably shorter than three years.

Quote from: ggroy;397492WotC spent 3+ years pumping out rather marginal books during the 3.5E era, after a year of hitting the "reset button" and cranking out the first several "Complete *" books.

Shrug. I imagine most of what you consider marginal, I wouldn't.

However, I think there's a period near the end where it's easy to see that the products were different. They started mucking with the rules, changing assumptions, etc.. Tome of Shadows, Magic of Incarnum, Book of Nine Swords, et al., are examples. I imagine we'll start to see the same with Pathfinder.

Seanchai

Quote from: ggroy;397491I like Kingmaker too.  Though I don't think I'll ever play the AP from beginning to end.

Me, neither. But I was curious as to how they'd do a sandbox module and I wanted the rules for running kingdoms. Now I imagine I'll just get the whole set, even though I already have book three and thought from a usability standpoint for me that it was meh.

Quote from: ggroy;397494Paizo probably would not be able to get away with such shenanigans.  I can see Paizo's timeline of draining the vein dry, being probably shorter than three years.

Paizo has it's loyal fans, who will buy everything they produce. Depending on how much they need to take in from each product line, they might be able to survive for a time.

Especially buoyed by sales of game aids. There's a new player in town in that market - can't remember the name, but they're making condition markers and vinyl mats - and I'm curious to see what impact they'll have on Paizo, especially since they can use WotC's 4e trade dress.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;397542Shrug. I imagine most of what you consider marginal, I wouldn't.

However, I think there's a period near the end where it's easy to see that the products were different. They started mucking with the rules, changing assumptions, etc.. Tome of Shadows, Magic of Incarnum, Book of Nine Swords, et al., are examples. I imagine we'll start to see the same with Pathfinder.

What splatbooks would you consider non-marginal during the 3.5E era?

For me, it depended on the game.  In one game I was DMing, one of the players wanted to use the "Book of Nine Swords", and I was willing to allow it.

More generally, the Wotc 3.5E books I felt were non-marginal and saw some use in my games (whether as a player or DM), were the first several "Complete *" books and Underdark.  For an Eberron game I played in, the "Sharn:  City of Towers" book was used quite a bit by the DM.  In another game, one player used the "Expanded Psionics Handbook" quite a bit.

Quote from: Seanchai;397547Especially buoyed by sales of game aids. There's a new player in town in that market - can't remember the name, but they're making condition markers and vinyl mats - and I'm curious to see what impact they'll have on Paizo, especially since they can use WotC's 4e trade dress.

Gale Force Nine.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpg/series.php?qsSeries=54

Quote from: ggroy;397492WotC spent 3+ years pumping out rather marginal books during the 3.5E era, after a year of hitting the "reset button" and cranking out the first several "Complete *" books.

I sort of think of the weapons of legacy as the book "when the crap began". But I blame that as much on the layoff-induced "changing of the guard" as I do the vein being bled dry.

Quote from: ggroy;397548What splatbooks would you consider non-marginal during the 3.5E era?

For me, it depended on the game.  In one game I was DMing, one of the players wanted to use the "Book of Nine Swords", and I was willing to allow it.

More generally, the Wotc 3.5E books I felt were non-marginal and saw some use in my games (whether as a player or DM), were the first several "Complete *" books and Underdark.  For an Eberron game I played in, the "Sharn:  City of Towers" book was used quite a bit by the DM.  In another game, one player used the "Expanded Psionics Handbook" quite a bit.

I have a copy of the book of Nine Swords. A new guy joining my pathfinder group wants to play a Monk. I'm thinking of letting him play a sword sage or some such thing. I never got to use the book, but I used to spend a lot of time on the 3.5 forums and everyone there regarded it as the best splat book ever written for 3.5, almost as important as the players hand book, and much more fair.

Just noticed this.

http://www.facebook.com/paizo

Quote from: Paizo's facebook pageNew products announced at Gen Con: Ultimate Magic (April), Ultimate Combat (August), Tian Xia World Guide (August) plus tons of other stuff.

"Tian Xia" appears to Paizo's version of an asian themed setting, probably similar in spirit to older settings like Rokugan, Kara-Tur, etc ...  Most likely the Pathfinder AP starting in August 2011, will also be asian themed (tentatively titled "Jade Regent").

From chatter on Paizo's message boards, there's speculation and assertions that both "Ultimate Magic" and "Ultimate Combat" will include all kinds of asian themed stuff.

If I had to guess, "Ultimate Combat" will probably be Paizo's version of the "Book of Nine Swords".  How tied in together these two "Ultimate *" books will be, is unknown at the moment.  For example, are they trying to replicate a "wuxia" style of combat and powers?

As to whether these particular PF titles are of the "shit dumping" variety, will probably be dependent on how one feels about asian themed rpg stuff and/or whether one objects to it being "shoehorned" into the Pathfinder rpg ruleset.


EDIT:  Personally, if I really wanted to play an asian themed rpg, I would probably play something like a non-d20 version of "Legend of the Five Rings" instead of D&D/Pathfinder.

I had fun back in the day running in Kara-Tur. It's a fun setting and a nice change of pace product wise. Especially if you want to play a foreigner in a strange land game. Which I hope Jade Regent supports.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;398102I had fun back in the day running in Kara-Tur. It's a fun setting and a nice change of pace product wise. Especially if you want to play a foreigner in a strange land game. Which I hope Jade Regent supports.

I remember the 1E AD&D Oriental Adventures book and the Kara-Tur box set.  They looked neat at the time, but I never got around to ever playing it back in the day.

It was decent. Not as cool as say L5R, but it was a nice change of pace.

From the sound of it Pathfinder's setting will be less Japan, more China. That should be nice.

Tian Xia setting book? That sounds cool.

I got the Gamemastery Guide, read through its first chapters at the moment, which I found pretty cool. Didn't agree with some of the stuff there, but it's a decent treaty for any thinking gamer. More on the rest of the book later.

IIRC it's been implied that the 'next planet over' from Golarion is a Barsoom-like red planet, so they could do some sword & planet stuff for a bit.

On the subject of "shit dumping", I looked through my bookcase full of old d20 glut stuff, and compared it to the Pathfinder supplements I have or skimmed through previously.  In particular, I found all the old Mongoose d20 crap I still had around.


Looking through the Pathfinder supplement books on various monsters, such as:

- Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Monsters Revisited
- Pathfinder Chronicles: Dragons Revisited
- Pathfinder Chronicles: Dungeon Denizens Revisited
- Pathfinder Chronicles: Book of the Damned—Volume 1: Princes of Darkness
- Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Horrors Revisited

these titles read more and more like various Mongoose Slayer's Guides and other similar titles, but with better presentation, artwork, editing, etc ...


Looking through the Pathfinder supplement books on various races, such as:

- Pathfinder Companion: Elves of Golarion
- Pathfinder Companion: Dwarves of Golarion
- Pathfinder Companion: Gnomes of Golarion
- Pathfinder Player Companion: Orcs of Golarion

these titles read more and more like a condensed version of Mongoose's Quintessential books on particular races, but with better presentation, artwork, editing, etc ...


Various Pathfinder supplement books on other topics such as pantheons, planes, NPCs, groups, cults, equipment, treasure, etc ... such as:

- Pathfinder Chronicles: Gods & Magic
- Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond—A Guide to the Multiverse
- Pathfinder Chronicles: NPC Guide
- Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Treasures Revisited
- Pathfinder Chronicles: Faction Guide
- Pathfinder Companion: Adventurer's Armory

these titles read more and more like generic books (on the same subjects) from various d20 publishers like Mongoose, White Wolf, Alderac, Bastion, Fantasy Flight, Fast Forward, etc .., but with better presentation, artwork, editing, etc ...

I have no idea what exactly the title, "Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets—A Guide to the Pathfinder Society" is about, nor what purposes it serves.


Looking at what's on tap for the rest of this year and next year, there's the Pathfinder supplement titles:

- Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Misfit Monsters Redeemed
- Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Book of the Damned—Volume 2: Lords of Chaos
- Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Rival Guide
- Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Undead Revisited
- Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Dungeons of Golarion
- Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide

- Pathfinder Player Companion: Halflings of Golarion
- Pathfinder Player Companion: Faiths of Purity
- Pathfinder Player Companion: Humans of Golarion
- Pathfinder Player Companion: Faiths of Balance

- Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Magic

If one removed the Paizo/Pathfinder name + logos from these supplement books, I would have thought these titles sounded like the sort of d20 shovelware crap that Mongoose, Fast Forward, Fantasy Flight, etc ... could have released during the d20 glut.  If one didn't know any better, it sounds like Paizo has already been scraping the bottom of the barrel.


More generally, it seems like if one removed the Paizo/Pathfinder name + logo from the above mentioned Pathfinder supplement books, changed all the pages to black and white (instead of color), and substituted in crappier artwork, it wouldn't surprising if most of these Pathfinder supplement books could be mistaken for the type of crap that Mongoose and other d20 companies shoveled onto the market during the d20 glut.

In this sense, Paizo has been "shit dumping" shovelware onto the market since 2008, albeit shovelware which has been well produced and professionally edited (unlike Mongoose during the d20 glut).

Quote from: ggroy;399461In this sense, Paizo has been "shit dumping" shovelware onto the market since 2008, albeit shovelware which has been well produced and professionally edited (unlike Mongoose during the d20 glut).

What you say is just cursorily based on titles alone. Not on content. How many of these books have you read? I've read quite a few of them personally. These are not comparable to Mongoose titles and such in terms of actual content, since these are generally shockful of specific (Golarion) flavor, are generally extremely coherent, and not vanilla piece-meal crap put back together in editing. There is no comparison to be made.