Quote from: EBM;388681Exactly!  It's a shame there isn't Good Karma to help do good things and Bad Karma for bad.  But then again sometimes good and bad are subjective!

That is easily house ruled though. Remove the penality for killling and give Karma out for results regardless of the methods used.

Quote from: EBM;388679Interesting so in my case advancement would occur but a the end of say a campaign arc where a major threat has been removed.  Awards are given based on the achieved goal and the infrequent player who has attended maybe a third of the sessions get's the same as everyone else?  Also any changes are logical ones that fit the arc just finished?

Assuming your frequent attenders are ok with someone who only pops in every now and then getting the same rewards, that would work fine. You could even have advancement happen on a per session or per scene basis, so long as the folks that aren't there have the same totals when they come back as the folks that are.

If you do that, and you go with MSH, you'd want to divorce xp and spending karma from each other. Giving X amount of karma per session that people can spend on rolls would keep the player who wasn't there from returning and suddenly having enough karma in his lap to go supernova, while the rest of the players have had to spend theirs because they were involved in the sessions.

Or you could figure out the average amount of karma people have burned vs. how much they've save or spent on advancement, but that could get pretty annoying as it'll change every session.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388680If you make advancement slow enough that they don't notice it, then the players will not notice it and it will be just like you didn't have it. If you make advancement fast enough that they notice it, then the players who aren't getting it will notice the disparity of not having it.

You can't simultaneously make players who show up to games feel like their characters are better without making the players who didn't get that feel like their characters are worse.

There is nothing wrong with a superheroes game that has no advancement. Nothing wrong at all. There is also nothing wrong with a superheroes game that does have advancement. The first models teams like The Justice League, where the characters are already at their iconic points of ability; and the second models teams like The X Men, where the characters are supposed to be growing as people and as heroes to fit their eventual iconic state sometime in the future. You aren't going to be able to do both at the same time - and you need to nut up to that fact and pick some consistent design goals.

-Frank

Your wrong IMHO!  It's a queston of balance and an understanding group.  I will have my cake and eat it.

Quote from: Soylent Green;388686That is easily house ruled though. Remove the penality for killling and give Karma out for results regardless of the methods used.

Yes that sounds possible.

Quote from: James McMurray;388687Assuming your frequent attenders are ok with someone who only pops in every now and then getting the same rewards, that would work fine. You could even have advancement happen on a per session or per scene basis, so long as the folks that aren't there have the same totals when they come back as the folks that are.

If you do that, and you go with MSH, you'd want to divorce xp and spending karma from each other. Giving X amount of karma per session that people can spend on rolls would keep the player who wasn't there from returning and suddenly having enough karma in his lap to go supernova, while the rest of the players have had to spend theirs because they were involved in the sessions.

Or you could figure out the average amount of karma people have burned vs. how much they've save or spent on advancement, but that could get pretty annoying as it'll change every session.

Hmm sounds like a lot of paperwork!

Quote from: EBM;388701Hmm sounds like a lot of paperwork!

That's why I'd recommend the first option. Just give them X karma per session. Any they don't spend is lost. That way the people who don't show up have the same expendable resources as the ones who are there and using theirs frequently. How much you give would depend on what power level you're looking for.

Quote from: EBM;388679Interesting so in my case advancement would occur but a the end of say a campaign arc where a major threat has been removed.  Awards are given based on the achieved goal and the infrequent player who has attended maybe a third of the sessions get's the same as everyone else?  Also any changes are logical ones that fit the arc just finished?

Awards are not given based on achieved goals. Characters who fail learn too. A character who is not there is assumed to be doing something else somewhere else, and thus gets the same as the rest. What the advancement is would be based on what the characters were doing - their job - that year.

A "year" is a flexible piece of time. It's however long it takes to play through the interesting parts. The dull parts are assumed to happen. In other words, if you are playing a homicide detective, you don't play the 20 open and shut cases where you know who did it and just have to build the case. You play out the whacko case, the screwball murder, the difficult puzzler, or the dangerous mob hit.

Note also that using this scheme you can skip years and move ahead in time - take two years worth of advance ment, guys! - or loop back and play out a year you skipped, and chargen works the same way. You chargen the character to the point you want to play him/her.

-clash

Quote from: EBM;388570Good afternoon from the sunny North West of England.  This is my first post!  Long time lurker though...

It's a great time for Supers rpg's but I'm agonizing over buying a new supers game.  I don't think what I want is available!  It must have the following...
 
1. Simple rules but not too hand wavey!  Light crunch (is that what they call it these day's)?
2. No maps or miniatures (when superspeed and flight are involved maps become irrelevant IMHO).  Something Zonal?
3. Detailed downtime system (for Gadgeteering, Team/HQ building, Investigation/Infiltration and missing players).
4. Fast random character generation (not all players of rpg's read comics) option.
5. Different types of play (Iron Age, Silver Age etc..) so you can play in different era's or do time/parallel travel type games.
6. No "level" based games (enough already).
7. No clutter (card's, tokens, roulette wheels, jenga towers etc..) at the table.  Space is at a premium in our group, Players just have dice, character sheets and a notepad.
8. The ability to die occaisionally (there are loads of games where no matter how idiotic the players actions the pc can't die) or sacrifice yourself for the greater good.
 
Of the current crop I know a little about and am interested in...
 
ICONS fails on 2,3,7.
BASH Unlimited Edition fails on 3,4.
Savage Worlds + Supers Companion fails on 2,3,4,7.
 
Unusually for a GM I don't  like or have the time for house ruling.
 
I don't own any of the books above so my opinions are only based on reviews and forum posts made by other people.
 
Apparently BASH UE will be getting a companion with a random character generator in it (this year?) so that would make BASH UE by default the closest to what I want at the moment.
 
No game I currently own has all these attributes either.

Any suggestions?  Is there a game I've missed?  

The style of campaign I'm planning to run is a gritty "Suicide Squad" analogue.  So it's lower powered(ish) villains vs. similar or more powerful heroes or armed and dangerous normals (usually military types).

Though I am all about BASH UE (and I think ICONS is pretty great, too), I think Bold & Brave by Precis Intermedia is gonna get PRETTY close.  It has guidelines for the team stuff, for the gadgeteering, doesn't require maps and minis, has rules to largely randomize character generation, has crunch but not excessive crunch...I think it's gonna come pretty close...closer than anything else I've seen.

Quote from: EBM;388599As a published game designer and while I have your ear, why is it do you think that rpg's don't deal with player absence and group dynamics very well?  The player in my group is a great guy, he has run a lot of games for us in the past and he still want's to participate.  Many games make no allowance for busy people instead they penalise them for not turning up.  As it happens this guy's career has taken off and he now travels all over the world but he still want's to game when he can.  Obviously you can go down the route of "I will give you X xp for a picture of your PC" or "Y xp for a detailed background" but you can only do that so many times.  How good would it be if that player could say "sorry guy's I'm away for three week's, my character is going to try and infiltrate The Directorate (or whatever cool organisation you are using) or I'm going to upgrade the base defences, compile a super villain database etc..  That would be so cool.  Evil Hat touched on this with extended contests in FATE 2.0 but I have not really seen any game do it really well and I've been gaming since 1979!

Morality in MSH is easy to not enforce, and just give Karma as you see fit. My personal opinion is it should flow like water. I also have used maps for it rarely just using my judgment and the players for "areas" 1 area is close, 2 Medium and 3+ a good run (i.e dodging on a football field to the end run from a 1 yard from the opposing yard line as I see it.)

As to dealing with absent players one of the things that superheroes do well, is absent players. They don't have to be there the next issue, unless you don't finish the adventure. Then you have the odd knockout, erratic alien kidnapping, or some call for their assistance to go do something else. Though games don't think about that much, which I do, which is why yes H&S will talk about it if I can. I have the same issue. Often in campaigns play (fantasy, Shadowrun, etc.) we play a different game that day, one of the advantages of supers is that they're just crazy enough to have one hero vanish for a time. Using a system like MSH, or Fate might work if you simply award Fate points/Karma for things done outside play, that they choose to do. I'd get with that player and have them list six random reasons they might be called away--preferably tied to their profession, skills, or past. Yes its a house rule, but that way you can have them vanish and don't have to pick one or use them in order. Also you can work with them in advance to decide how much reward them being gone actually gets.

Them not being there usually costs them XP in games, and rightfully so, they weren't THERE to get it, but if you want to include it for game flow purpose you set up how much reward they get for each event. Talk to them about it, and actually have them make some rolls when they get back or have them deal with it "on page" at the beginning of the next comic before they finish up and come back and the rest of the group gets going.

Also never forget the clone, evil robot, or shapeshifter borrowing his role and pretending to be him or her. Can always have the PC's show up to rescue him next issue. Just award him points (whichever system you use) for the "I capture you, tough luck hero" type rule.

I still recommend MSH, I know it take a little house ruling but that's less work than writing up a full superhero Fate game. (As fun as that might be, and as much as I'm tempted to do one, at some point.)

I've not looked at Golden Heroes/UK Squadron in a while and I want to say it had a few of the features you look for--but I cannot be sure.

I'd gladly help more. You and I could hack out house rules for Icon's or T&J, maybe Savage Worlds or something if you wanted. But is a lot of extra work. (I'm not yet familiar enough with BASH.)

Quote from: pspahn;388684There's also Bold & Brave.  Here's a review.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17533

I haven't played it but it seems to hit all your bullets except maybe 5.  I'm very familiar with the core system and it does gritty and heroic equally well.

Pete

Well, the book goes into the different eras/types of play right up front...I DON'T think it has HQ stuff, though...that's the only bit I was unsure on.

But yeah, I'm with you, Bold & Brave hits all the points closer than anything else I know of.

Quote from: flyingmice;388710Awards are not given based on achieved goals. Characters who fail learn too. A character who is not there is assumed to be doing something else somewhere else, and thus gets the same as the rest. What the advancement is would be based on what the characters were doing - their job - that year.

A "year" is a flexible piece of time. It's however long it takes to play through the interesting parts. The dull parts are assumed to happen. In other words, if you are playing a homicide detective, you don't play the 20 open and shut cases where you know who did it and just have to build the case. You play out the whacko case, the screwball murder, the difficult puzzler, or the dangerous mob hit.

Note also that using this scheme you can skip years and move ahead in time - take two years worth of advance ment, guys! - or loop back and play out a year you skipped, and chargen works the same way. You chargen the character to the point you want to play him/her.

-clash

Sounds cool, I will check your stuff out.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;388722Well, the book goes into the different eras/types of play right up front...I DON'T think it has HQ stuff, though...that's the only bit I was unsure on.

But yeah, I'm with you, Bold & Brave hits all the points closer than anything else I know of.

It's not a game system I'm familiar with guy's but I will check it out.

Thanks for the link.

Quote from: Silverlion;388721Morality in MSH is easy to not enforce, and just give Karma as you see fit. My personal opinion is it should flow like water. I also have used maps for it rarely just using my judgment and the players for "areas" 1 area is close, 2 Medium and 3+ a good run (i.e dodging on a football field to the end run from a 1 yard from the opposing yard line as I see it.)

As to dealing with absent players one of the things that superheroes do well, is absent players. They don't have to be there the next issue, unless you don't finish the adventure. Then you have the odd knockout, erratic alien kidnapping, or some call for their assistance to go do something else. Though games don't think about that much, which I do, which is why yes H&S will talk about it if I can. I have the same issue. Often in campaigns play (fantasy, Shadowrun, etc.) we play a different game that day, one of the advantages of supers is that they're just crazy enough to have one hero vanish for a time. Using a system like MSH, or Fate might work if you simply award Fate points/Karma for things done outside play, that they choose to do. I'd get with that player and have them list six random reasons they might be called away--preferably tied to their profession, skills, or past. Yes its a house rule, but that way you can have them vanish and don't have to pick one or use them in order. Also you can work with them in advance to decide how much reward them being gone actually gets.

Them not being there usually costs them XP in games, and rightfully so, they weren't THERE to get it, but if you want to include it for game flow purpose you set up how much reward they get for each event. Talk to them about it, and actually have them make some rolls when they get back or have them deal with it "on page" at the beginning of the next comic before they finish up and come back and the rest of the group gets going.

Also never forget the clone, evil robot, or shapeshifter borrowing his role and pretending to be him or her. Can always have the PC's show up to rescue him next issue. Just award him points (whichever system you use) for the "I capture you, tough luck hero" type rule.

I still recommend MSH, I know it take a little house ruling but that's less work than writing up a full superhero Fate game. (As fun as that might be, and as much as I'm tempted to do one, at some point.)

I've not looked at Golden Heroes/UK Squadron in a while and I want to say it had a few of the features you look for--but I cannot be sure.

I'd gladly help more. You and I could hack out house rules for Icon's or T&J, maybe Savage Worlds or something if you wanted. But is a lot of extra work. (I'm not yet familiar enough with BASH.)

Some great suggestions there. I will re-read MSH over the next couple of days and see how I feel about it.

Wow Golden Heroes was the 2nd rpg I ever bought.  I tried starting a campaign with it a few years ago but it felt very dated.

Quote from: EBM;388746Some great suggestions there. I will re-read MSH over the next couple of days and see how I feel about it.

Wow Golden Heroes was the 2nd rpg I ever bought.  I tried starting a campaign with it a few years ago but it felt very dated.

There is nobody who knows more about supers roleplaying than Tim!

-clash

Quote from: EBM;388746Some great suggestions there. I will re-read MSH over the next couple of days and see how I feel about it.

Wow Golden Heroes was the 2nd rpg I ever bought.  I tried starting a campaign with it a few years ago but it felt very dated.

It am not sure Squadron UK, would feel "less" dated, it is updated but it is still the same mechanics.

In other news a Revised version of Villains & Vigilantes is on the way. (A minor one but that's for now--to be in print)