Good afternoon from the sunny North West of England.  This is my first post!  Long time lurker though...

It's a great time for Supers rpg's but I'm agonizing over buying a new supers game.  I don't think what I want is available!  It must have the following...
 
1. Simple rules but not too hand wavey!  Light crunch (is that what they call it these day's)?
2. No maps or miniatures (when superspeed and flight are involved maps become irrelevant IMHO).  Something Zonal?
3. Detailed downtime system (for Gadgeteering, Team/HQ building, Investigation/Infiltration and missing players).
4. Fast random character generation (not all players of rpg's read comics) option.
5. Different types of play (Iron Age, Silver Age etc..) so you can play in different era's or do time/parallel travel type games.
6. No "level" based games (enough already).
7. No clutter (card's, tokens, roulette wheels, jenga towers etc..) at the table.  Space is at a premium in our group, Players just have dice, character sheets and a notepad.
8. The ability to die occaisionally (there are loads of games where no matter how idiotic the players actions the pc can't die) or sacrifice yourself for the greater good.
 
Of the current crop I know a little about and am interested in...
 
ICONS fails on 2,3,7.
BASH Unlimited Edition fails on 3,4.
Savage Worlds + Supers Companion fails on 2,3,4,7.
 
Unusually for a GM I don't  like or have the time for house ruling.
 
I don't own any of the books above so my opinions are only based on reviews and forum posts made by other people.
 
Apparently BASH UE will be getting a companion with a random character generator in it (this year?) so that would make BASH UE by default the closest to what I want at the moment.
 
No game I currently own has all these attributes either.

Any suggestions?  Is there a game I've missed?  

The style of campaign I'm planning to run is a gritty "Suicide Squad" analogue.  So it's lower powered(ish) villains vs. similar or more powerful heroes or armed and dangerous normals (usually military types).

Ouch. Picky picky.

Well, HERO fails your criteria on 2 and 4.
Mutants and Masterminds fails on 2, 4, and 6
Strange Synergy fails like all of yours except 4.
TFOS fails on 3 and 8.
Münchhausen fails on 1 and 8.


Spirit of the Century maybe? You only need 4 dice, so you could keep track of your Fate points with a note pad.

-Frank

I know, it does seem like I'm being picky but in my defence a lot of this stuff is needed because of the group I'm in.  We have one player who can only drop in once every month or so, everyone (almost) is sick of D20 games.  We have virtually no table space and only I read comics!  The players would like to play but coming up with concepts and powers is hard for them.

I take your point about SOTC.  I used to have it but although I like FATE I didn't like it too much but I can't remember why and it doesn't have the random chargen.  I was hoping that ICONS would be more FATE(y) than it ended up being with Taggable scene Aspects etc.. but I'm not sure it would be a good fit unless there are some extra bits planned for it?

Quote from: EBM;388570Good afternoon from the sunny North West of England.  This is my first post!  Long time lurker though...

It's a great time for Supers rpg's but I'm agonizing over buying a new supers game.  I don't think what I want is available!  It must have the following...
 
1. Simple rules but not too hand wavey!  Light crunch (is that what they call it these day's)?
2. No maps or miniatures (when superspeed and flight are involved maps become irrelevant IMHO).  Something Zonal?
3. Detailed downtime system (for Gadgeteering, Team/HQ building, Investigation/Infiltration and missing players).
4. Fast random character generation (not all players of rpg's read comics) option.
5. Different types of play (Iron Age, Silver Age etc..) so you can play in different era's or do time/parallel travel type games.
6. No "level" based games (enough already).
7. No clutter (card's, tokens, roulette wheels, jenga towers etc..) at the table.  Space is at a premium in our group, Players just have dice, character sheets and a notepad.
8. The ability to die occaisionally (there are loads of games where no matter how idiotic the players actions the pc can't die) or sacrifice yourself for the greater good.
 
Of the current crop I know a little about and am interested in...
 
ICONS fails on 2,3,7.
BASH Unlimited Edition fails on 3,4.
Savage Worlds + Supers Companion fails on 2,3,4,7.
 
Unusually for a GM I don't  like or have the time for house ruling.
 
I don't own any of the books above so my opinions are only based on reviews and forum posts made by other people.
 
Apparently BASH UE will be getting a companion with a random character generator in it (this year?) so that would make BASH UE by default the closest to what I want at the moment.
 
No game I currently own has all these attributes either.

Any suggestions?  Is there a game I've missed?  

The style of campaign I'm planning to run is a gritty "Suicide Squad" analogue.  So it's lower powered(ish) villains vs. similar or more powerful heroes or armed and dangerous normals (usually military types).

SUPERS! (+Sourcebook).

It doesn't do 3 & 4 (although chargen is fast, so it meets half of 4).

You can get the pdf here

http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=1460

or the book, here

http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1016378

Might I suggest the old Marvel Superheroes Game?  Its one of the few games with mechanical base and gadget building that is simple enough. It's available for download only.

I know that Savage Worlds is basically level based (they call it Ranks: Novice, Veteran, Seasoned, etc.) It also uses cards for initiative. While I think it's a nice little game it seems to fail your criteria. I don't know what's in the Super's companion, but people who I talk to regularly have told me its Necessary Evil with a few things like team advantages and some villain types/NPC's. I suspect it fails more than a few more of your criteria. I like Savage World+Necessary evil, but it doesn't seem to fit what you want.  It was also written so miniatures can be used or similar tokens on a battlmat (it uses bursts templates for some powers and weapons scaled to common sized  square measuring maps--its not absolutely necessary but it helps.)


Icon's doesn't seem to either, it doesn't have detailed rules for building--just skill lists and information on team building to have a group team. Having a determination pool for the group and such. Powers aren't hand wavey, and it uses the distances you seem to like. I really am enamored of Icon's I find it pretty much what I want from other peoples games. I have it pre-ordered and its sitting on my hard drive in PDF form from the pre-order, but its not ideal for me either. Still a solid game that I like. It has built in default random roll generation, but offers point building as an option. It does make use of common superhero tropes like catchphrases, which I find cool, but some people find corny or silly.

Bash UE is a wonderful little game with more crunch than the previous two. I'd rate them Icons (Lowest)--Bash (Highest) but with Savage worlds only a shade under Bash, and its not by much I'm talking about. It has gadget building rules, but bases seem to be more a matter of choosing advantages than "constructing" them. Albeit it comes closer than the other two, and it is a very nice game. The game uses 5x5' squares as their measurements, used on anything from graph paper to chess boards, to battle maps and suggest tracking things visually with tokens or miniatures (fold up types.) It comes closest to your criteria of the ones you list. Not ideal of course.

The old MSH (FaseRip, or the Unviersal Table) game has rules for everything you've asked for and its one of my favorites--mind you none of the games you've mentioned are "bad" to me, though they fail your criteria for the most part. I think DC heroes (MEGS) also has rules for inventing, and building devices.

I don't think any of them focus on player's who don't show up--I think they all expect you the GM to handle that by saying they're off in another dimension, get called away, or the like.

I know my own game H&S is too  abstract, and I neglected a few things like bases and inventions. That won't be true of 2nd edition but that's over a year away at this point.  Truth & Justice also neglects those aspects and is more solid and detailed than H&S but fails your criteria.

By the way, thanks for such information. I don't know how many people I've helped try to find the right superhero game, who I've had to ask  and narrow down what they're after, but you've done a good job of being specific.

Marvel Superheroes is an old and long OOP game it has built in random roll PC's (with options for just modeling what you want.) It has rules for dying, it has rules for kitbashed inventions and base building (although the latter isn't like complex or very detailed its still far better than most games at it.) It uses vague "areas" for movement and ranges--based on its maps, or a range ruler if you want, but pretty much an area is usually to the nearest major barrier (outdoors its 44 yards, indoors its barriers, up or town its "floors") but it gives real world measures to help visualize they're not so specific that it matters. It can be found on more than one website, and there are a HUGE amount of resources for it.

Marvel Superheroes Advanced Set (the best version)

If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer, its one of my top two "not written by me.." superhero games and I've played it almost 20 years in some form.

Plus I'm more than willing to discuss other games, I don't own a few of them of course but I do try and follow them enough to get a good sense about what they do right or don't do.

I think you can accomplish most of the benefits of random character generation by simply letting your players take a few swings on a Random Hero Generator. Roll up 20 or so, and you'll find something that tickles your fancy. So long as chargen is fast, I think that having it be entirely deterministic should fulfill your actual needs.

I mean, rolling up a random five, most of them were pretty stupid. But for some reason, this one appeals to m:

QuoteRadioactive Jack
Power(s): Extra appendage(s), Intuition

That seriously sounds like a fun character.

-Frank

Quote from: Silverlion;388592Might I suggest the old Marvel Superheroes Game?  Its one of the few games with mechanical base and gadget building that is simple enough. It's available for download only.

I know that Savage Worlds is basically level based (they call it Ranks: Novice, Veteran, Seasoned, etc.) It also uses cards for initiative. While I think it's a nice little game it seems to fail your criteria. I don't know what's in the Super's companion, but people who I talk to regularly have told me its Necessary Evil with a few things like team advantages and some villain types/NPC's. I suspect it fails more than a few more of your criteria. I like Savage World+Necessary evil, but it doesn't seem to fit what you want.  It was also written so miniatures can be used or similar tokens on a battlmat (it uses bursts templates for some powers and weapons scaled to common sized  square measuring maps--its not absolutely necessary but it helps.)


Icon's doesn't seem to either, it doesn't have detailed rules for building--just skill lists and information on team building to have a group team. Having a determination pool for the group and such. Powers aren't hand wavey, and it uses the distances you seem to like. I really am enamored of Icon's I find it pretty much what I want from other peoples games. I have it pre-ordered and its sitting on my hard drive in PDF form from the pre-order, but its not ideal for me either. Still a solid game that I like. It has built in default random roll generation, but offers point building as an option. It does make use of common superhero tropes like catchphrases, which I find cool, but some people find corny or silly.

Bash UE is a wonderful little game with more crunch than the previous two. I'd rate them Icons (Lowest)--Bash (Highest) but with Savage worlds only a shade under Bash, and its not by much I'm talking about. It has gadget building rules, but bases seem to be more a matter of choosing advantages than "constructing" them. Albeit it comes closer than the other two, and it is a very nice game. The game uses 5x5' squares as their measurements, used on anything from graph paper to chess boards, to battle maps and suggest tracking things visually with tokens or miniatures (fold up types.) It comes closest to your criteria of the ones you list. Not ideal of course.

The old MSH (FaseRip, or the Unviersal Table) game has rules for everything you've asked for and its one of my favorites--mind you none of the games you've mentioned are "bad" to me, though they fail your criteria for the most part. I think DC heroes (MEGS) also has rules for inventing, and building devices.

I don't think any of them focus on player's who don't show up--I think they all expect you the GM to handle that by saying they're off in another dimension, get called away, or the like.

I know my own game H&S is too  abstract, and I neglected a few things like bases and inventions. That won't be true of 2nd edition but that's over a year away at this point.  Truth & Justice also neglects those aspects and is more solid and detailed than H&S but fails your criteria.

By the way, thanks for such information. I don't know how many people I've helped try to find the right superhero game, who I've had to ask  and narrow down what they're after, but you've done a good job of being specific.

Marvel Superheroes is an old and long OOP game it has built in random roll PC's (with options for just modeling what you want.) It has rules for dying, it has rules for kitbashed inventions and base building (although the latter isn't like complex or very detailed its still far better than most games at it.) It uses vague "areas" for movement and ranges--based on its maps, or a range ruler if you want, but pretty much an area is usually to the nearest major barrier (outdoors its 44 yards, indoors its barriers, up or town its "floors") but it gives real world measures to help visualize they're not so specific that it matters. It can be found on more than one website, and there are a HUGE amount of resources for it.

Marvel Superheroes Advanced Set (the best version)

If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer, its one of my top two "not written by me.." superhero games and I've played it almost 20 years in some form.

Plus I'm more than willing to discuss other games, I don't own a few of them of course but I do try and follow them enough to get a good sense about what they do right or don't do.

Firstly thank you for a wonderfully detailed and helpful answer.

I actually have Advanced MSH already but with the mapping and the Karma issue for morally ambiguous characters I rejected it out of hand.  Good game but maybe not right for this particular group unfortunately.

As a published game designer and while I have your ear, why is it do you think that rpg's don't deal with player absence and group dynamics very well?  The player in my group is a great guy, he has run a lot of games for us in the past and he still want's to participate.  Many games make no allowance for busy people instead they penalise them for not turning up.  As it happens this guy's career has taken off and he now travels all over the world but he still want's to game when he can.  Obviously you can go down the route of "I will give you X xp for a picture of your PC" or "Y xp for a detailed background" but you can only do that so many times.  How good would it be if that player could say "sorry guy's I'm away for three week's, my character is going to try and infiltrate The Directorate (or whatever cool organisation you are using) or I'm going to upgrade the base defences, compile a super villain database etc..  That would be so cool.  Evil Hat touched on this with extended contests in FATE 2.0 but I have not really seen any game do it really well and I've been gaming since 1979!

If H&S 2nd Edition did this I would buy it in a heartbeat!

My criteria are quite specific because I've been thinking about this for months to address a very specific set of circumstances and then I wrote the opening post in about 5 minutes.  

I think it is probably down to BASH, ICONS or some kind of FATE hack.
It's early in the thread yet so someone else may have better idea though.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388596I think you can accomplish most of the benefits of random character generation by simply letting your players take a few swings on a Random Hero Generator. Roll up 20 or so, and you'll find something that tickles your fancy. So long as chargen is fast, I think that having it be entirely deterministic should fulfill your actual needs.

I mean, rolling up a random five, most of them were pretty stupid. But for some reason, this one appeals to m:



That seriously sounds like a fun character.

-Frank

Wow great resource Frank!  

I got..

The perverted Major Nimbus
Power(s): Reinforced skeleton, Electrical generation/control, Pyrokinesis
Source of powers: Extra-dimensional mutant

Seems a natural fit for a Risus type supers game?  

Maybe I'm overthinking this?

Quote from: EBMAs a published game designer and while I have your ear, why is it do you think that rpg's don't deal with player absence and group dynamics very well?

While I'm not the published game designer you asked, I am also a published game designer, and I can answer that question.

The usual reason is because many games dangle the advancement treadmill before players as an incentive to keep playing. To allow players to come in on every fourth session or so without problems, you're really going to want to play a game without advancement. I mean sure, Ars Magica can give you some benefits for having been sitting around in the lab for the last two seasons - but the amount of accounting involved will likely feel like a punishment to the player in question, or at best a shallow consolation prize (since the players actually showing up will have found Vis and gotten face time experience).

Fortunately, Superheroes as a genre caters well to the zero advancement paradigm. No one is weirded out if Superman doesn't change his gadgets or his powers for eight issues in a row. Outside of origin stories and major summer events, characters are pretty static in what they can do. So really you can take any functional Supers game and just straight up not award any XP. It works fine. HERO system gets a bit... off... after you pump 50 more points into the characters from their start point. Frankly, playing without advancement is kind of better. Certainly better if your players aren't showing up every session.

Remember, WoW is a popular game and it has advancement. But Counter Strike is also popular and characters do not advance between sessions. It's a perfectly viable model.

-Frank

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388602While I'm not the published game designer you asked, I am also a published game designer, and I can answer that question.

The usual reason is because many games dangle the advancement treadmill before players as an incentive to keep playing. To allow players to come in on every fourth session or so without problems, you're really going to want to play a game without advancement. I mean sure, Ars Magica can give you some benefits for having been sitting around in the lab for the last two seasons - but the amount of accounting involved will likely feel like a punishment to the player in question, or at best a shallow consolation prize (since the players actually showing up will have found Vis and gotten face time experience).

Fortunately, Superheroes as a genre caters well to the zero advancement paradigm. No one is weirded out if Superman doesn't change his gadgets or his powers for eight issues in a row. Outside of origin stories and major summer events, characters are pretty static in what they can do. So really you can take any functional Supers game and just straight up not award any XP. It works fine. HERO system gets a bit... off... after you pump 50 more points into the characters from their start point. Frankly, playing without advancement is kind of better. Certainly better if your players aren't showing up every session.

Remember, WoW is a popular game and it has advancement. But Counter Strike is also popular and characters do not advance between sessions. It's a perfectly viable model.

-Frank

.  

Agreed I'm perfectly fine with zero or slow advancement (change) in Supers games in particular.  It is totally in keeping with the source material.  I'm not really familiar with HERO though, I've played it but I didn't really get it.

I'm not suggesting that my player would feel exactly the same level of involvement or have as much fun as a character that can turn up regularly but that won't stop me trying to give him a chance to stay involved.

Quote from: FrankTrollman;388596I think you can accomplish most of the benefits of random character generation by simply letting your players take a few swings on a Random Hero Generator. Roll up 20 or so, and you'll find something that tickles your fancy. So long as chargen is fast, I think that having it be entirely deterministic should fulfill your actual needs.

I mean, rolling up a random five, most of them were pretty stupid. But for some reason, this one appeals to m:



That seriously sounds like a fun character.

-Frank

Yeah, that's awesome. This is worth the link alone...

Sky Zombie
Power(s): Intangibility
Weapon: Power Net
Transportation: Spider Rickshaw

My first thought is using the new Basic Roleplaying book along with the old Superworld supplements that are still available as PDFs from Chaosium.
Simple, versatile, gritty, lower power levels, optional random generation (at least for the basic stats), no levels or classes, no clutter or need for miniatures.
Superworld was the RPG that 'inspired' the original Wild Cards stories.
 
Basic Roleplaying Central has a nice download for doing City of Heroes... a low-level supers setting based on the MMORPG.

Quote from: EBM;388599I actually have Advanced MSH already but with the mapping and the Karma issue for morally ambiguous characters I rejected it out of hand.  Good game but maybe not right for this particular group unfortunately.

Well you know, if you like MSH but don't like mapping Karma to a character's morality, then just don't. Just give out Karma points like other systems give out Experience Points.

Quote from: Simlasa;388641My first thought is using the new Basic Roleplaying book along with the old Superworld supplements that are still available as PDFs from Chaosium.
Simple, versatile, gritty, lower power levels, optional random generation (at least for the basic stats), no levels or classes, no clutter or need for miniatures.
Superworld was the RPG that 'inspired' the original Wild Cards stories.
 
Basic Roleplaying Central has a nice download for doing City of Heroes... a low-level supers setting based on the MMORPG.

Interesting...  how much Super's stuff is in the Basic book?  Isn't there a Supers book out for it already?  Can't remember the name.

Quote from: Silverlion;388592Might I suggest the old Marvel Superheroes Game?  Its one of the few games with mechanical base and gadget building that is simple enough. It's available for download only.

I second this. Marvel Superheroes is easy to learn and fast to get started. Not only that, but you can't beat the price (free). The books were released in pdf and are free / legal to download. Check out http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/cms/ (the other stuff menu has the downloads)