Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383606RPGs are not a rite of passage.

Agreed. It's not the fucking freemasonry.
Though there still is the secret Gagyx Handshake...

Quote from: Fifth Element;383627"Timmy, I can't help you until you can talk about what your daddy did to you."

"...He...he played games with me. And spent time with me."

"...Dear god..."

"And now I have brain damage!"

Good old Mirror Ron.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383629"And now I have brain damage!"

Good old Mirror Ron.

EXACTLY. Like I said a few pages earlier, it's awfully close to saying that kids playing games with their parents are brain-damaged. I never thought I would see Pundy go for such an argument.

Its not about brain damage (and very amusing watching people who have no real arguments against my points trying to use the old "we don't have to actually argue, we'll just twist reality around as much as possible to try to paint the pundit as holding positions he in no way does"), its about them not becoming gamers.
I don't give a fuck about parents having a good time with their kids or not, I give a fuck about this hobby being healthy, and I take issue with the idea that forcing your 5 year old to play 4e with you means that the hobby has a future.
That's not a future, because that kid will likely NOT become a gamer because of your actions.

And sorry, but while RPGs themselves aren't a rite of passage, there are certain rites of passage in the RPG hobby. Certain experiences that are part of the hobby, that not everyone experiences all of them, but where its very fucking clear that if your mom is the person GMing you, you will not experience any of them.

And yes, RPGs are meant to be a hobby that is a little bit "dangerous"; you're not meant to be a nice person and not swear and use coasters while you're playing the Barbarian Anti-paladin of the Dark Lord of Skulls who's just slaughtered an entire orc village. Having a parent in your group guarantees (unless that parent is fairly unusual) an overly-sanitized "PG-rated RPG" experience, if not a disneyfied one if the kid is especially young, which I find hard to believe will not be later viewed as "Lame".

RPGPundit

Quote from: Benoist;383630EXACTLY. Like I said a few pages earlier, it's awfully close to saying that kids playing games with their parents are brain-damaged. I never thought I would see Pundy go for such an argument.

And you still haven't, you cunt. The fact that Kyle can't argue his way out of a paper-bag, and has to create a fake line of argument to make up for his inherent inadequacy, doesn't mean you have to jump on that bandwagon. You could, I don't know, try to continue arguing for your side in the REAL debate.

RPGPundit

And pray tell, Pundit, what in your opinion constitutes a "healthy hobby"?

And how is it that a parent bringing (say) his 7-year-old to the gaming table threatens this "health"?

Because to me it is sounding a lot like Forge-cult argumentation. "The kid cannot possibly be having fun and he'll grow up to hate RPGs." (which admittedly is not what you've explicitly said, but it did feel like you were setting up for this or a similar conclusion).

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383629Good old Mirror Ron.

Which one has the goatee?

Quote from: RPGPundit;383707I don't give a fuck about parents having a good time with their kids or not, I give a fuck about this hobby being healthy, and I take issue with the idea that forcing your 5 year old to play 4e with you means that the hobby has a future.

Now that's a fake line of argument.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383707That's not a future, because that kid will likely NOT become a gamer because of your actions.

Bullshit. Also, how likely is the kid to start playing RPGs if left alone to discover them by chance? At the absolute very least it creates exposure to RPGs, which is far from a sure thing otherwise.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383707And yes, RPGs are meant to be a hobby that is a little bit "dangerous"

So that's what RPGs are meant to be. Thanks, Ron. Oops, I mean Pundy.

I think you're projecting how you see yourself on the hobby as a whole. You might consider yourself badass for playing RPGs, but in reality, gamers are not badass. In general, we're nerds.

Pundit, I'm not getting your argument. Its seems based on a presumption. Are you talking from personal experience or anecdote or do you have access to some definitive data? My experience (albeit annecdotal) and that of some of my fellow players, tells a different story.

I was introduced to D&D by my dad at the age of 11, my younger brother at 7, my youngest brother who was 4 years younger than him didn't start playing until he was about 7 so 4 years later. ALl of us were introduced to 'this great new game' he had discovered.

We had grown up on a steady diet of fantasy and Sci Fi, not because it was pushed on us, but because we demanded it. And like good parents they provided for and encouraged our development, believing (rightly in my opinion) that it (Edit for clarity: 'it' meaning D&D here)  would help in our social development and imagination as well as all sorts of other areas (teamwork, leadership, having fun, take your pick, etc).

Soon we took control and started running our own sessions, inviting other friends to play. We still play and have an interest in RPGs now.

They aren't special, they are just a game, while the semantics might be a little different, they are still just a past time, a hobby. We enjoyed them just as much as Monopoly, Card games, Cricket in the Garden and didn't see any great difference. They weren't, for us, tainted by being introduced by my Dad, and I honestly can't see why we would do so. I can't imagine my father introduced us to it for purely altruistic reasons, (since he happened to be seated next to me today at my office today he can confirm that), he thought he'd enjoy it as well.

I now have two daughters, one is 6 the other 3. I don't anticipate introducing them to RPGs quite yet, although saying that my six year old is already looking at some of my books (she is an advanced reader) and has expressed an interest. When we walk to and from the swimming pool on Saturday mornings we, as she puts it, 'make up stories', however in reality its just a variation of role playing without any rules. She initiates it and always wants to follow on from the previous adventure. Why on earth would I want to deny her something she so clearly already enjoys, the fact I enjoy it as well is irrelevant.

Saying that I would not introduce her to my game table any time soon, she just wouldn't be able to deal with the games we are playing with other adults and neither would I expect her to. However thats not going to stop me from introducing her to a very simplified version of an RPG aimed at her age group if she wants to that she can introduce to her friends and her younger sister (when she's ready).

My experience is something very different to what you describe/fear, and there is no question of any coercing going on beyond enjoying a past time that your kids also might enjoy (and most times are already enjoying with their parents and peers anyway in one form or another). What could possibly be 'wrong' or 'damaging' with that? The fact is like most past times you introduce to your kids, they inevitably take control of it and start to share that past time with their friends and peers. Would that include me, I don't expect so. Does that mean she will never game with me again, I hope not but its her choice (see no coercion). I don't think I would let her game with me and my friends any time soon, and quite frankly she would probably find the experience boring. But to set up a game for her  and her friends if she wanted, hell yeah. Within hours she would be creating her own material and DM'ing herself with her friends in the playground at home wherever. And that's got to be a good thing in my opinion. They may not do it according to the 'rules' they'll make up their own, they'll be horribly unbalanced, broken, they'll argue over it they'll have fun, they'll fall out etc,  sound familier?

There is nothing in my experience and in the backgrounds of other players in my group (some of which had similar introductions to RPGs) that would indicate otherwise.

I'll readily admit all the above is anecdotal, it is my experience (or my players) and does not constitute a definitive survey of any kind, I'm sure there are plenty of other stories out there. However I can't believe that somehow my experience is so totally and utterly unique and that there aren't others who have had a similar experience.

What do you think?

My son, when he was little, begged and begged my wife and I to play an RPG with him, so when he was 8 or 9 we did so. He was Frodo Beggins (sic) and these were the further adventures of Frodo. He grew out of that after a bit, and began making other characters. After a couple of years he got a friend to play with him while I ran the games. Then after a few more years, he recruited a bunch of his friends, and we had a group, one that is still around today - and all of whom, with the exception of my wife, he recruited.

Man, he totally rejected gaming! Rejected it so much that by age 16, he was a contributor to my published games, designing magic systems, settings, and rule variants. He hated me so much for coercing him into it that now, at age 23, he's going for his Masters in Game Design and designing his own game - a supers RPG called "Look! Up In The Sky!"

Man, coercing him into gaming has just ruined it for him! I'm sure he will never forgive me for it!

-clash

Quote from: RPGPundit;383709And you still haven't, you cunt.

Yes I have, bitch. The fact that most of us, and most gamers in general, for that matter, have been introduced to the hobby by relatives and older friends, completely invalidates your argument that somehow parents playing an RPG will "spoil them" from some "rite of passage" that would make them better gamers for it.

This is pure bullshit, and you know it. Stop snorting from Ron's Coke stash!

Quote from: The Butcher;383712And pray tell, Pundit, what in your opinion constitutes a "healthy hobby"?

And how is it that a parent bringing (say) his 7-year-old to the gaming table threatens this "health"?

A healthy hobby is one that outlives this current generation of gamers.
And the threat is in that gamers' kids (or nephews/nieces, or little brothers/sisters) would be natural candidates to become gamers themselves, but not if its done wrong, and not if its done for the adult gamer's self interest rather than for the good of the kid and the hobby (which to me are one and the same here).

QuoteBecause to me it is sounding a lot like Forge-cult argumentation. "The kid cannot possibly be having fun and he'll grow up to hate RPGs." (which admittedly is not what you've explicitly said, but it did feel like you were setting up for this or a similar conclusion).

I'm talking about averages here; likelihoods. I know there's at least one or two adult gamers today that grew up playing RPGs with their parents from a young age, so its clear that this tactic at least to some degree works. However, I suspect that in most cases it won't; and yes, I'm highly suspicious of parents thrusting a hobby that's meant to be for ages 12+ onto preteens or toddlers, and doubt its something they're doing out of altruism.

There's nothing Swiney about acknowledging that some parents often try to get vicarious thrills out of their kids; and nothing Swiney about acknowledging that some parents often use kids as substitutes for other things in their lives (ie. a gaming group?), and its no great mystery that many of those kids as teens go on to reject what was thrust upon them.
Or is the other side so intent on trying to "take me down" here that they're now going to seriously start trying to pretend that there's no such thing as rebellious teenagers who think that everything their parents did with them is Lame?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Fifth Element;383728Bullshit. Also, how likely is the kid to start playing RPGs if left alone to discover them by chance? At the absolute very least it creates exposure to RPGs, which is far from a sure thing otherwise.

If you'd actually read the thread, you'd have noticed that I never argue against "exposure": I'm not suggesting that parents roleplay in secret, or hide their books from their kids. I specifically advocated that when the kid is old enough (12+ or so, younger in the case of some "introductory" material in the style of Fighting Fantasy, etc.), the parents should get their kids their own gamebooks.

Don't conflate issues here. What I'm suggesting is that parents shouldn't take it upon themselves to be their kid's GM when the kid is barely out of diapers, ruining their potential to enjoy RPGs when they're older just to get some cheap mommy/daddy thrills or to make up for not having a group of ADULTS who want to game with them.

QuoteSo that's what RPGs are meant to be. Thanks, Ron. Oops, I mean Pundy.

Oh ho ho you're so very witty! What the fuck does that even mean, you fucking clod?! You want to throw around that nonsense argument about "Mirror ron" because I'm daring to talk about what RPGs should be like? YES, motherfucker, there is a way RPGs should be. That's the entire and sole foundation for arguing against the likes of Edwards and the Swine, because if there wasn't any way RPGs "should" be, then Edwards and co. would have the right to do whatever the fuck they wanted and call it RPGs.
It must be fucking hard for you, to be such a worthless waste of breath that all you can do is parrot someone else's incredibly lame insult-based argument, huh?
Have you ever considered trying to THINK? I know it must hurt, and might cause your nose to bleed, but you might even actually be able to come up with an argument of your own, maybe even one that's relevant to the point.
It might not be very good, but trust me, it can't look any more pathetic than "mirror ron"; that's the rhetorical equivalent of wetting yourself as a defense mechanism in the hopes the other guy will just go away.

RPGPundit

I'm curious: would you call Ernie or Luke Gygax, for instance, "maladjusted gamers"?

Because children playing with their DAD has been happening since... before OD&D was actually put to print, you know?

Quote from: It was all a mistake;383729Pundit, I'm not getting your argument. Its seems based on a presumption. Are you talking from personal experience or anecdote or do you have access to some definitive data? My experience (albeit annecdotal) and that of some of my fellow players, tells a different story.

I was introduced to D&D by my dad at the age of 11, my younger brother at 7, my youngest brother who was 4 years younger than him didn't start playing until he was about 7 so 4 years later. ALl of us were introduced to 'this great new game' he had discovered.

We had grown up on a steady diet of fantasy and Sci Fi, not because it was pushed on us, but because we demanded it. And like good parents they provided for and encouraged our development, believing (rightly in my opinion) that it (Edit for clarity: 'it' meaning D&D here)  would help in our social development and imagination as well as all sorts of other areas (teamwork, leadership, having fun, take your pick, etc).

Soon we took control and started running our own sessions, inviting other friends to play. We still play and have an interest in RPGs now.

They aren't special, they are just a game, while the semantics might be a little different, they are still just a past time, a hobby. We enjoyed them just as much as Monopoly, Card games, Cricket in the Garden and didn't see any great difference. They weren't, for us, tainted by being introduced by my Dad, and I honestly can't see why we would do so. I can't imagine my father introduced us to it for purely altruistic reasons, (since he happened to be seated next to me today at my office today he can confirm that), he thought he'd enjoy it as well.

I now have two daughters, one is 6 the other 3. I don't anticipate introducing them to RPGs quite yet, although saying that my six year old is already looking at some of my books (she is an advanced reader) and has expressed an interest. When we walk to and from the swimming pool on Saturday mornings we, as she puts it, 'make up stories', however in reality its just a variation of role playing without any rules. She initiates it and always wants to follow on from the previous adventure. Why on earth would I want to deny her something she so clearly already enjoys, the fact I enjoy it as well is irrelevant.

Saying that I would not introduce her to my game table any time soon, she just wouldn't be able to deal with the games we are playing with other adults and neither would I expect her to. However thats not going to stop me from introducing her to a very simplified version of an RPG aimed at her age group if she wants to that she can introduce to her friends and her younger sister (when she's ready).

My experience is something very different to what you describe/fear, and there is no question of any coercing going on beyond enjoying a past time that your kids also might enjoy (and most times are already enjoying with their parents and peers anyway in one form or another). What could possibly be 'wrong' or 'damaging' with that? The fact is like most past times you introduce to your kids, they inevitably take control of it and start to share that past time with their friends and peers. Would that include me, I don't expect so. Does that mean she will never game with me again, I hope not but its her choice (see no coercion). I don't think I would let her game with me and my friends any time soon, and quite frankly she would probably find the experience boring. But to set up a game for her  and her friends if she wanted, hell yeah. Within hours she would be creating her own material and DM'ing herself with her friends in the playground at home wherever. And that's got to be a good thing in my opinion. They may not do it according to the 'rules' they'll make up their own, they'll be horribly unbalanced, broken, they'll argue over it they'll have fun, they'll fall out etc,  sound familier?

There is nothing in my experience and in the backgrounds of other players in my group (some of which had similar introductions to RPGs) that would indicate otherwise.

I'll readily admit all the above is anecdotal, it is my experience (or my players) and does not constitute a definitive survey of any kind, I'm sure there are plenty of other stories out there. However I can't believe that somehow my experience is so totally and utterly unique and that there aren't others who have had a similar experience.

What do you think?

I'm a little loathe to comment on the specifics of an anecdotal situation, because of course its your anecdote, and I can't know the facts about it.

However, if we take what you're saying here at face value, it SOUNDS like what your father did for you was to be shown the game, and then left to your own devices, to run YOUR games, with YOUR friends, without constant parental interference. And it was shown to you when you were 11, which I still think a bit young, but certainly a more reasonable age than many accounts I've heard.
This is very different than most of the "gamer parents" accounts, where parents take their 4 or 5 or 6 year old kid and basically run the game for them, and turn their family into their own little personal gaming group.

You aren't completely clear if by "introduced" you mean that your father actually ran the game with you and your brothers, though I'm going to assume that's the case. If so, the real question is whether if your dad had shown you the books, lent them to you and your friends, and you'd run a game session as kids together, without parental supervision, do you think things would have turned out any different?
I suspect not, in your case, I suspect you'd have turned out to be just as much of a gamer, if not moreso.
On the other hand, had your dad been a different person than he is, and a little less willing to leave you to your own devices, I could see how you could have come to see RPGs as a "kids'" game that your weird dad liked, that you would drop like a hot potato in adolescence.

Again, I'm not saying that every single kid introduced to gaming by their parents is not going to be a gamer as an adult. Shit, some people are just BOUND to be gamers, and they'd be playing it no matter what their circumstances or how they came about it. In other cases, though, the method of introduction is important and affects what will happen in the long term.

RPGPundit