[Since apparently my nerdrage transcends fora boundaries, I figured to post this here too.]

When I'm confronted with 'point buy' systems, I do my best to make a character that is effective and interesting (Side note: I often min-max for survivability because 'interesting' in game is usually synonymous with 'in danger'). But too often all that work is ignored or overshadowed by the GM in play.

And when confronted with 'random generation' systems, I don't mind getting what the Fates decree. But if I only have a handful of choices to make, and most of them are obvious either due to system constraints or peer pressure, then I'd much rather just get a pregen.

This is why I'm no longer willing to delve into the intricacies of complex character generation systems anymore. I mean, I program for fun and profit, and I LOVE doing that kind of thing, but only if I get results.

You have to get to know the GM, and realise the difference between cost and value. The point cost of the particular traits in the rules is not the same as the value in play.

For example, I had a GM who always asked for Perception checks. I mean 5 or 6 times a session at least. And if we succeeded, it was always something interesting or useful we'd seen. So the 5xp it cost to raise Perception - which might be the award for a session - was well worth it.

But his NPCs were very stubborn, so points spent on Intimidation, Diplomacy and so on were wasted. You just had to roleplay things and hope for the best.

It can be frustrating, but that's life when you're dealing with other human beings. You have to get to know them and accomodate their whims and weirdness. Either that or become a GM yourself, put on your Viking Hat, and bend everyone else to your will.

I'm crazy, but when I'm planning for a session, I use the players character sheets as a guide for my challenges.  Now, that doesn't mean that every challenge is keyed to their strongest traits...quite the opposite, as I do toss in at least something to make them at least cover for a weakness...

...but if I have a guy who has dumped a ton into Intimidation, unless he's staring down a supernatural monstrosity (or horribly, horribly botches the roll), he damn well intimidates his target.

Playing Deadlands Reloaded one day, one player (who had made a point to buy up his Intimidation) decided to stop a lynching by cowing the mob.  Intimidation + good roll = mob backing off.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383631You have to get to know the GM, and realise the difference between cost and value. The point cost of the particular traits in the rules is not the same as the value in play.

For example, I had a GM who always asked for Perception checks. I mean 5 or 6 times a session at least. And if we succeeded, it was always something interesting or useful we'd seen. So the 5xp it cost to raise Perception - which might be the award for a session - was well worth it.

But his NPCs were very stubborn, so points spent on Intimidation, Diplomacy and so on were wasted. You just had to roleplay things and hope for the best.

It can be frustrating, but that's life when you're dealing with other human beings. You have to get to know them and accomodate their whims and weirdness. Either that or become a GM yourself, put on your Viking Hat, and bend everyone else to your will.

Absolute motherfucking truth right there!

KNOW THY GM.

This is a key to entertainment around the gaming table. If you know what the GM calls for, what he doesn't call for, what he likes and dislikes, how he builds his adventures, what he is waiting for on the players' part, then you can create a character that sets a synergy with the GM's way of handling things in motion. This, along with the knowledge of the other players' styles, needs and wants, makes for a stronger game in the end. Don't fight it: learn from it, use it to your advantage, and have fun with everyone else.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;383620But too often all that work is ignored or overshadowed by the GM in play.

Explain.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;383620But if I only have a handful of choices to make, and most of them are obvious either due to system constraints or peer pressure, then I'd much rather just get a pregen.

I understand this very well.

Too often, the system has obvious superior choices, or at least optimal choices for starting characters, and ignoring them isn't being creative as much as just hamstringing yourself.

It's why I hate the bastard sword in D&D.  

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383631Either that or become a GM yourself, put on your Viking Hat, and bend everyone else to your will.

Amen.  It's certainly been my favorite solution.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;383620then I'd much rather just get a pregen.

Hmm...I wonder if that's one of the reasons D6 Star Wars and OD&D did so well with noobs.

D6 SW had a whole mess of templates for characters and you would then have a small handful of points to customize the template.   And of course, OD&D handed you a Dwarf and while your character sheet did look pretty much like every other Dwarf, you didn't have to worry about it.

Its one of the reasons I do like simple, fast chargen and RPG where your character develops during play.

Tell your GM to stop running games he obviously doesn't care for.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;383632I'm crazy, but when I'm planning for a session, I use the players character sheets as a guide for my challenges.  Now, that doesn't mean that every challenge is keyed to their strongest traits...quite the opposite, as I do toss in at least something to make them at least cover for a weakness...

...but if I have a guy who has dumped a ton into Intimidation, unless he's staring down a supernatural monstrosity (or horribly, horribly botches the roll), he damn well intimidates his target.

Playing Deadlands Reloaded one day, one player (who had made a point to buy up his Intimidation) decided to stop a lynching by cowing the mob.  Intimidation + good roll = mob backing off.

That's how I feel about things too... Let your players roll and accept the results accordingly... There is a reason why they put points in certain skills, abilities, powers, whatever.

Wujcik spoke about using the character sheets to define the focus of his campaigns in Amber Diceless (a point-buy/auction system). The GM simply adds up stats and whatever the players have focused their points on will be used the most, not that everything else gets ignored, but you get my point.

Well, sometimes as a GM the players have background stuff that fits and other times I just have to work around it and even avoid it outright.  Also, passive players will rarely find their character background stuff being tapped because if they don't care to draw upon it I'm sure not going to bother.  On the other hand, if I'm GMing you probably want to write up your character's family so I won't just do it myself...

The cost vs actual value point Kyle makes is of course true. It doesn't make the problem any less annoying though when during character creation you would really just like to spend the points to create a character that mirrors your concept (say give your retired sea captain a bunch lot of rarely to be to be used nautical skills) but realise that in practice due to the style of the specific GM, the smart thing to do would be pump everything into fighting skills and Perception as he'll probably handwave everything else. I guess you just have to be sensible about it.

In an ideal world it would be nice if GMs worldwide were able to take a hint once in a while but unfortunately the only socially acceptable why to provide less than positive feedback to a GM is to quit the game because "you are suddenly really busy in real life". Or maybe that's just how it is in the UK.

As an aside, I seem to be one of the few players who actually likes pre-gens. I enjoy that moment when you are looking at the all the abilities and asking yourself, "Okay, who is this guy?". Also, it's less work.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383631You have to get to know the GM, and realise the difference between cost and value.

Agreed.

However, the last time I attempted to do this (by discussing things on a forum before play with the GM and players), I was excommunicated from my local gaming club.

In addition, I'm pretty sure at least one of the members misunderstood what I meant when I said 'know the GM'. They thought I meant personally, so I could get favors :rolleyes:

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;383632I'm crazy, but when I'm planning for a session, I use the players character sheets as a guide for my challenges.

I swear I don't know why every GM doesn't do this. I find it so much easier than creating a scenario beforehand and then playing a back and forth with incoming character concepts until they fit.

You can't get to know the GM on a forum. You know those job adverts where it says, "must be punctual, reliable and honest"? Do you think anyone reading that says, "well I'm always late, unreliable and a lying dog"?

When asked, every GM will claim that they're completely impartial and apply the rules completely consistently with no focus on particular areas and handwaving of others, just as every player will claim "I'm really into bringing out the background of my character and roleplaying social interactions."

Of course that's usually bullshit. You just have to play with them for a while and find out what they're like.

Am I an odd GM that if something is required or really important to a campaign I'd give it to the players for free?  I also rather dislike the habit of some "universal" games that assume every trait or ability is equally valuable across any genre/campaign. Example: In a horror game being in a wheelchair may very well be more game effecting than in a game of mystery solving lawyers.

Heh, I just hate super crunchy and time consuming character creation because it's fucking boring.

When I was a kid I would gladly spend hours making a character -in my adolescent mind each one was a masterpiece of creativity and emotional depth. Of course, in reality, they were crap. But whatever. It was part of the fun.

As an adult, with my own business to run and a family my time is limited. And time for gaming is severely limited. Games fizzle and die, and we switch games every few months.

There's no emotional pay-off to the overly-complex character creation system for me anymore.

Give me something quick and dirty, like Savage Worlds. 5 minute character creation, and the Hindrances and Edges give me all the quirks I need to RP a fun and interesting character.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;383658Tell your GM to stop running games he obviously doesn't care for.

I think is part of the problem.  It can happen two ways.
 
1.  GM runs what they can get players for but hates it.  Someone who hates D20 isn't going to run it well or make good use of the rules.  If you picked feats around AoOs and the GM ignores them, you're screwed.
 
2.  GM chooses system for emotional rather than rational reasons.  Suppose they want to run a supers game so they'll use Champions because they have fond memories of past campaigns but they don't fully grasp the system or reference all of the crunch.  Then all the time on a carefully made build is wasted.