Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;382581I was just thinking about teen rebellion.  Pundit, if you had some rebellious teen kids, I bet they'd reject Amber and start playing My Life With Master.  That would show you.

"You don't understand me, or my dice pools!"

Then they try to slam the door, but their geeky arms are too weak.

Actually the tone of The Window and some other games makes a lot more sense if you imagine the author as the child of a grognard.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383131But even in those ideal situations, where the kid is totally not being taken advantage of in any way, I think it does deny those kids some special elements of discovering and exploring RPGs on their own that are very formative in the RPG experience.

This also fails to make sense. Are you suggesting that all RPGers should learn the game with a group that has never played before? That is to say, how is this situation really different from a kid learning to play the game from other (non-related) experienced gamers, a situation which I daresay is quite common?

Pundit, what you are so inaptly missing is that most parents play games and make-believe with their children, and that a roleplaying game is nothing more than a natural extension of what they're already doing for years.

Quote from: RPGPundit;382547I probably shouldn't, but.. ok, I'll bite: Nineties political slogans?

This.

Quote from: RPGPundit;382552I'm quite willing to bet that 90+% of those kids who were coerced into playing RPGs with daddy before they were 12 -

Coercion? Yes, because when dad says, "kids, I want to spend several hours playing games with you," the kids usually say, "noooooooo!" He has to COERCE them.

Seriously, Pundit, was the last time you met children when you were one yourself?

Polack Canuck in Uruguay, Currently Smoking: Crazy Glue.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383182Polack Canuck in Uruguay, Currently Smoking: Crazy Glue.

:teehee:

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383182Polack Canuck in Uruguay, Currently Smoking: Crazy Glue.

HA!

Quote from: PundyI'm sure there are more than a few geek parents who are far from the "dysfunctional geek" model (I mean, at the very least they were sufficiently functional to be able to mate, which already puts them ahead of the typical dysfunctional gamer).

I'm sure there's lots of parents who are playing with their kids because the kids begged them to, and are not trying to coerce them into it, don't push the kids about it if the kids get bored with it, etc.
But even in those ideal situations, where the kid is totally not being taken advantage of in any way, I think it does deny those kids some special elements of discovering and exploring RPGs on their own that are very formative in the RPG experience.

But that's the thing though. I guess what's shocking me is that you seem to live in an alt-universe where geek parents are coercing their children to play games with them. I mean... really? WTF?

And the point that it would "rob them of some important part of their RPG development"... What?! You do know that the vast majority of gamers were introduced to the game by friends or parents and didn't come to it magically on their own, right?

I'm just not following you there.

Quote from: Fifth Element;383156This also fails to make sense. Are you suggesting that all RPGers should learn the game with a group that has never played before? That is to say, how is this situation really different from a kid learning to play the game from other (non-related) experienced gamers, a situation which I daresay is quite common?

"experienced gamers" should be your best friend's older sister's 19-year-old boyfriend; not your 42 year old mother GMing for you and making sure that you don't say any dirty words and put coasters under your glasses.

RPGPundit

Quote from: The Shaman;383167Pundit, what you are so inaptly missing is that most parents play games and make-believe with their children, and that a roleplaying game is nothing more than a natural extension of what they're already doing for years.This.

Ah, I see. So it was just a cheap shot. And an inaccurate one at that. "political correctness" as a term was first used by Marxists, albeit not disparagingly, they were being perfectly serious.
Which of course, the PC-crowd still are, and they can't stand that to most other people the idea that people should be forced to be "politically correct" is actually a horrific dystopian concept.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383182Coercion? Yes, because when dad says, "kids, I want to spend several hours playing games with you," the kids usually say, "noooooooo!" He has to COERCE them.

Seriously, Pundit, was the last time you met children when you were one yourself?

Polack Canuck in Uruguay, Currently Smoking: Crazy Glue.

Coercion not implying force in this case, but manipulation.  I'm pretty sure that most kids would have a long list of things they'd like doing with dad, and playing with dad, the choice to direct that toward running RPG campaigns with your children is yours as a parent, not usually the child's.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;383274"experienced gamers" should be your best friend's older sister's 19-year-old boyfriend; not your 42 year old mother GMing for you and making sure that you don't say any dirty words and put coasters under your glasses.

RPGPundit

Come on. It doesn't *have* to be that way.
You can set up "play time" with a different set of expectations.
It's like... you have no idea of what it means to be a parent, or something.

Show us on the doll where your mom touched you.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383279Coercion not implying force in this case, but manipulation.  I'm pretty sure that most kids would have a long list of things they'd like doing with dad, and playing with dad, the choice to direct that toward running RPG campaigns with your children is yours as a parent, not usually the child's.

Couldn't the same be said of "board game night" or even just tossin' the ole pigskin around the back yard? Aren't these all a kind of coercion by your definition? Wouldn't introducing any kind of recreational activity implicitly perform some kind of violence on the free will of the child?

Should parents resign themselves to being alien disciplinary figures who are careful only to concern themselves with the "boring" aspects of a child's emerging identity?

I think you're being a tad cynical about the dynamics of the parent-child relationship and the purpose of gaming in general. Is gaming about fulfilling some deep personal need or is it a medium through which you can have fun with other people? You seem to be cutting awfully close to the first view which, as I understand it, is the perspective of what you call "the swine." But again, if RPGs are just a medium through which you have fun with other people, what's the difference between playing an RPG and any other game? How is playing Monopoly with a kid not "using him" to have fun?

Moreover, if you have some moral issue with the transactional nature of any human interaction, how can you justify gaming with anyone? Do you honestly view your fellow players as tools through which you experience the beauty of the game in-itself or do you just view the game itself as a means to have a good time with people whose company you enjoy? I would consider the latter to be a healthy mindset, and it's the mindset that most people have when they run a dungeon crawl with their kid. It's not about finding an excuse to play D&D. It's about sharing something fun with someone you like... like fishing or baseball or cooking.

To that end, the key is not to force your child to do something he doesn't enjoy, and unless you explicitly tell a child that their sense of self-worth should be tied to their performance in some recreational activity (as with overbearing sports parents), children are rather vocal about what they don't like.

Quote from: EmboldenedNavigator;383297I think you're being a tad cynical about the dynamics of the parent-child relationship and the purpose of gaming in general. Is gaming about fulfilling some deep personal need or is it a medium through which you can have fun with other people? You seem to be cutting awfully close to the first view which, as I understand it, is the perspective of what you call "the swine." But again, if RPGs are just a medium through which you have fun with other people, what's the difference between playing an RPG and any other game? How is playing Monopoly with a kid not "using him" to have fun?

This is very well-said. Pundit did say he considers RPGs to be a rite of passage, so it appears there is some swinery going on.

Quote from: Fifth Element;383521Pundit did say he considers RPGs to be a rite of passage, so it appears there is some swinery going on.

Well said.

Quote from: RPGPundit;383279I'm pretty sure that most kids would have a long list of things they'd like doing with dad, and playing with dad, the choice to direct that toward running RPG campaigns with your children is yours as a parent, not usually the child's.

So what? Some dads will always take their kids fishing, or always to a football game, or always do woodwork with them, or whatever. And the choice isn't entirely up to the kid. Mainly because kids don't care much. They enjoy doing lots of things and spending time with their parents.

Sometimes there'll be something they hate doing or are bored by, I assure you kids let their parents know about that. They don't hold back - that's pretty much one of the defining aspects of "being a kid," everything just comes gushing out. And most parents will find something else to do with their child instead, because they get tired of the screaming.

The child will not be scarred by this. "Oh my God, dad used to always take me fishing. We enjoyed it. It wasn't my idea, he MANIPULATED me into it." Come on.

RPGs are not a rite of passage.

"Timmy, I can't help you until you can talk about what your daddy did to you."

"...He...he played games with me. And spent time with me."

"...Dear god..."