Quote from: Akrasia;383362I find that Classic D&D (by which I mean 0e and Basic/Expert D&D) and BRP, especially the Call of Cthulhu, to be 'rules light' in comparison to many of the games that I've played in the past (e.g., Rolemaster, D&D 3e, etc.).

I completely agree with this. Even AD&D2 presents the player-end "crunch" in a manageable, well-structured way and only slowly phases in added complexity through higher levels and supplements. The disconnected clunkiness of the system also means subsystems can just be ignored or glossed over as needed. That's a far cry from modifier-heavy mini-battle-games like 3.5E or 4E.

But we already established the difference between crunch that can be handled by one person with system familiarity and crunch that demands everyone at the table knows exactly how every possible effect plays into into the tactical nuances of the game.

Quote from: Grymbok;383368There's one hell of an excluded middle between D&D 4e and "rules light".

You've made the mistake of looking for reasonable nuance in a schtick-post.

Quote from: The Butcher;383377I sense great things in the future of this thread.

We'd need to push a bit harder on the anti 4e/OSR/[insert hot button issue] front, but we sure can get there.

Quote from: Benoist;383386We'd need to push a bit harder on the anti 4e/OSR/[insert hot button issue] front, but we sure can get there.

Fucking canuck rabble-rousers...



(You know, you could try and provide some constructive input to the thread....)

Quote from: jeff37923;383388(You know, you could try and provide some constructive input to the thread....

I did, a few posts back. But then the poo-flinging started, so, whatever. I must be one of these lazy, no-prep nerds. :rolleyes:

Quote from: The Butcher;383391
I did, a few posts back. But then the poo-flinging started, so, whatever. I must be one of these lazy, no-prep nerds. :rolleyes:

I know and you did. It's OK, I'm a lazy no-prep nerd as well, so we're in good company.

Quote from: jeff37923;383388(You know, you could try and provide some constructive input to the thread....)

I've been saying a few things, but as far as the OP's concerned, you mean?
OK! Since you ask...

Quote from: jeff37923;383208Came to thinking after this weekend's game, with the changes in the hobby that have gone on over the past ten years - most of the people who are interested in gaming but are not playing right now, are turned off by the high buy-in hurdle of what is predominant in gaming right now. The most popular tabletop RPGs are relatively expensive in money and time needed for system mastery.

There's one thing that's certain: it's not the hobby you and me started with anymore. By which I mean: there as lot more role playing games out there, with tons of other types of activities directly competing for the people's time (like Game Consoles, iStuff and the like), and so on, so forth. So maybe we shouldn't expect the results in terms of rentability of introductory products to be the same as those of the 1980s.

That's a first thing.

Second, I indicated earlier that I think games are much more complex now than they were in the past. A game like Role Master is IMO a lot simpler to understand (actual layout/organization aside) compared to Euro-gamey RPGs like say, Warhammer FRP 3.

There's also a question of volume of the rule books. People today with internet, iShit and the like just won't read like they were in the 1980s. Yes. Even the 1980s. I mean. That's the hip society we live in now:

QuoteStereogum posted this yesterday, but it’s so hilarious and appalling it’s worth re-linking. On Tuesday, Reuters reported that Kanye West, a “a proud non-reader of books,” is releasing a book, Thank You And You’re Welcome.

Retures reporter Mark Egan deserves applause for his lead: “Rapper Kanye West does not read books or respect them but nevertheless he has written one that he would like you to buy and read.” The quotes from West are absurd, including: “Sometimes people write novels and they just be so wordy and so self-absorbed,” West said. “I am not a fan of books. I would never want a book’s autograph.”

So... yeah. It's as bad as it reads. It's not your daddy's world anymore...

Quote from: jeff37923;383208So to get people who would be considered casual gamers back to the tabletop, it seems to me that cheaper and simple elegant systems should be used to attract them. Preferably in places where people gather like pubs or coffeeshops or bookstores.

But all this shit aside, though you have a little bit of a point, I think these considerations are peanuts compared to the fact that gamers massively play with gamers, and seem unwilling/unable/etc to share their passion with their non-gamer friends and relatives.

You want to have more people playing the game? Introduce new people to the hobby.

It's that simple, to me.

I'm a prep nerd.

Rules light isn't the way to go to introduce large amounts of new players - if by new players you mean young players. Facts, figures, stats, batting averages, combos, builds, synergies, and even good, old-fashioned modifiers hook in the genuinely interested, whilst wooly play-as-you like stuff keeps them in the playground at lunchtime.

How about Amber.

Rules light, accessible to newbies with a minimum of experience. Knowledge of the novels is really useful but the system is so light I could port it over to practically any environemnt the players are familiar with and rejig it on the fly.

The players are all Lost fans? We tweak the Amber stats for Combat, Willpower, Guile and Endurance or even leave then as is. we use some key skills to replace the Amber powers and we are good to go.
You are all Star Trek fans,,, same deal .. skills replaced with technical expertise etc etc ....

This is the problem I have with Cubicle 7's Doctor Who. The system is so simple and undefined that it isn't even worth investing it.

Simple may mean more accessible, but it also means less engaging. It's far more important to have a clearly described coherent system than it is to have simplicity. It's just easier to do the former when the game IS simple.

Part of it depends on your play style.  I know quite a few people who are more into the story and character than rule manipulation.  They don't want to optimize anything or work at math, they want an interesting character and an interesting situation.  For them, complex rules are a chore, they need just enough to inspire them and keep it out of "No, I shot you first!" territory.  For that style, Risus and the like work well.  The RPG market has largely failed these people so most of them wind up playing computer games or hanging out at interactive fiction boards than playing rpgs.  The market has failed them because, though there are tons of light games, most of them have no market presence in store fronts or really anywhere outside experimental gamer places on the web.  The main reason for this is that there isn't much to sell with a truly light game and no way to sell a line of splat books.

Quote from: Nicephorus;383408The RPG market has largely failed these people so most of them wind up playing computer games or hanging out at interactive fiction boards than playing rpgs.  The market has failed them because, though there are tons of light games, most of them have no market presence in store fronts or really anywhere outside experimental gamer places on the web.  The main reason for this is that there isn't much to sell with a truly light game and no way to sell a line of splat books.

There is definitely truth here. An elegant game that fits on 2 sides of A4 and a dozen more pages on backgrounds samples of play etc ... well it isn;t going to make you million is it.

Quote from: Nicephorus;383408Part of it depends on your play style.  I know quite a few people who are more into the story and character than rule manipulation.  They don't want to optimize anything or work at math, they want an interesting character and an interesting situation.  For them, complex rules are a chore, they need just enough to inspire them and keep it out of "No, I shot you first!" territory.

It may seem hard to believe but I fit more into this category any more. When I was in college and just after, I had lots of time to devote to learning new, complex games (and money to buy them). I don't any more -- and haven't in many years. What little time I have to play RPGs, I'd rather spend playing an interesting character in an interesting situation. I don't want to worry about character builds, tactical combat, rules manipulation/mastery or any of the stuff that seems popular with "intense gamers" (for lack of a better term for the opposite of casual gamer) today.

Quote from: Nicephorus;383408The main reason for this is that there isn't much to sell with a truly light game and no way to sell a line of splat books.

Earlier I was thinking something similar... about White Wolf's marketing schemes and all those fat full-color hardbacks that the crowd clamors for... graphically and physically something like original Traveller doesn't have near the same shelf/window presence.

I'm also noticing that my definition of 'rules lite' is much heavier than a lot of other folks here.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;383404This is the problem I have with Cubicle 7's Doctor Who. The system is so simple and undefined that it isn't even worth investing it.

Really? I think that Dr. Who was just about right in terms of being rules-lite without being completely undefined.

If you didn't like the final version, you would have despised the earlier experimental versions...

RPGPundit

Do you think that some of the book- and splat-bloat has something to do with human tendency to think that more of something is better, even if it costs more? A 350 Page rulebook must be superior to a 128 page one, things like that.