Quote from: Settembrini;383331Fun fact: Only jaded old fart RPGers and cannot-be-bothered-to-prepare-swine see ANYTHING attractive in so called rules-light systems.

I hate to agree, but I have to.  I've said the same thing many many times, over the many occasions this myth has popped up.

The bottom line is, for 40 years, the mainline RPGs in this hobby have been far from "rules light".  AD&D, WoD, Rifts, Shadowrun, Dark Heresy, even Star Wars D6 isn't really as simple as people give it credit for, especially once you factor in all the additions made in R&E.  

Rules light doesn't sell. Because it's not the new people that need it, it's lazy old farts projecting their needs on younger gamers, assuming they're all idiots because they aren't perfect hardcore borderline-autistic nerds.

Leave your highschool trauma out of this, please.

I tell you what, buttmunches: I have introduced more people to RPGs than there are forae that Pundit and Trollman ared banned from COMBINED. And it is WAY EASIER to get into the hobby via rules & mechanics, than by playing pantsless.

If I have sessions with true hard-core gamerfolk, I´ll pull out Traveller and we might freeform 70% percent of it, while still keeeping ultra-simulationy and hard-sf.
But with newbs? Gimme D&D, and gimme lots of crunchy stuff for the players to chew on.

It´s only the efficency fucker-nerds that could screw that up. But you don´t invite them anyways...unles you are ONE OF THEM.

Quote from: Settembrini;383353But with newbs? Gimme D&D, and gimme lots of crunchy stuff for the players to chew on.

It´s only the efficency fucker-nerds that could screw that up. But you don´t invite them anyways...unles you are ONE OF THEM.

Unless you've found that complex rules systems tend to breed system mastery efficiency fucker-nerds. Then you might want to try something else and see if that works in bringing in the kind of people you want to game with.

Sorry dude, what you "Have found" is mostly bullshit with a 67% possibility.

I played as a player a total of ~50 levels of 3.5, highest 23: and I DMed A LOT more. Never ever have a I met an efficiency pig that could not be

a) brought to his sense sby simple pointing to the fact of what he has become since last week

b) ousted/not reinvited from/to the group because he was a douche anyway.

Quote from: Settembrini;383331Fun fact: Only jaded old fart RPGers and cannot-be-bothered-to-prepare-swine see ANYTHING attractive in so called rules-light systems.

Um, what do you mean by 'rules-light systems'?

I find that Classic D&D (by which I mean 0e and Basic/Expert D&D) and BRP, especially the Call of Cthulhu, to be 'rules light' in comparison to many of the games that I've played in the past (e.g., Rolemaster, D&D 3e, etc.).

I've also found those two games to be, hands down, the best games to introduce RPGs to new people, or to get lapsed gamers back into the swing of things.

However, I'm not sure that either of those systems would be considered 'rules light' in contrast to many other systems out there, or what the folks at RPG.net would consider 'rules light' (e.g., Wushu, Risus, etc.).

Truly 'rules light' systems probably would be a bad way to introduce RPGs to people.

IME, you need enough rules to give new players a sense of overall 'structure', but not so many rules that they feel overwhelmed by them, or that gameplay drags because of the intricate mechanics (e.g., 3e combat).

Quote from: Settembrini;383360Sorry dude, what you "Have found" is mostly bullshit with a 67% possibility.

Fair enough.

Quote from: Settembrini;383360I played as a player a total of ~50 levels of 3.5, highest 23: and I DMed A LOT more. Never ever have a I met an efficiency pig that could not be

a) brought to his sense sby simple pointing to the fact of what he has become since last week

b) ousted/not reinvited from/to the group because he was a douche anyway.

Would you describe yourself or any of these anecdotal Players you claim to be casual gamers?

Quote from: Settembrini;383351Leave your highschool trauma out of this, please.

Yes, yes, we get it, you're German, so therefore you know more about American culture than Americans do.

I am anything but a casual gamer. But most of my firends, players, sex partners and relatives are.
I indeed had about three weeks of being an efficiency asstard myself. Shame on me, and prais to those who pointed it out when I had that fit.

@Akrasia: Man, what´s up with your memory? We´ve been over that a hundred times! ANY version of D&D is always compelx enough by virtue of Gygaxian Building blocks.

Quote from: Settembrini;383331Fun fact: Only jaded old fart RPGers and cannot-be-bothered-to-prepare-swine see ANYTHING attractive in so called rules-light systems.

There's one hell of an excluded middle between D&D 4e and "rules light".

I wouldn't call games like d6 Star Wars or FASERIP MSH rules light at all, for example.

Quote from: Settembrini;383367... @Akrasia: Man, what´s up with your memory? We´ve been over that a hundred times!

We have?  
:confused:
Okay, if you say so!

Are we considering casual gamers to be non-gamers, or just people who don't play RPGs?

Because most, and I mean most, males up to say, age 35 or so, have played or play games, and a large portion of them are considered "gamers" (in the video-game sense of the word).  Playing a crunchy game doesn't necessarily turn these people off because they're used to playing a new game every month or so and being introduced to new methods, game structure, and learning curves.

Perhaps lots of rules or structure turn off people who don't have an interest in games (even on a passive level), but most people who want to actually sit down and play something want some formal structure to play, even if it's all handled on the GM's side (Dark Heresy sticks out as something that's crunchy on the GM side, but pretty light on the player side).

Plus, what are we considering "rules lite"?  I don't know that many good truly rules-lite games out there that are available.  OD&D is lighter than newer editions, but the rules structure is just focused on other aspects of play (tracking resources over the long-term, keeping records/maps, etc.).  Mouse Guard, while being a trimmed down version of BW, isn't something I would consider rules-lite, and it's got quite a bit more structure to play than most games in terms of GM/player interactions.

Personally, I'm a lazy-ass motherfucker.  I barely cracked a book open during the long 3.5 campaigns I was in, and I still enjoyed myself.  I've never had a problem with any crunchy games.  Crunchy isn't why I play or don't play a game.  What that crunch does and how it serves the game is why I play.  If I don't want to play a game based on its mechanics, it's not because it is or isn't crunchy, it's because how the crunch is implemented doesn't interest me -- and I've been that way since day one.

Quote from: Grymbok;383368There's one hell of an excluded middle between D&D 4e and "rules light".

This. QFT.

It's certainly nothing new, that certain people feel compelled to defend their choice of game, employing such imaginative tactics as quoting sales figures they don't have access to, or attaching derogatory labels to all other games and (better yet) the people who play them.

It's nothing new, but it never fails to amaze (and amuse) me.

It makes you think about the sort of life these people lead, that their choice of game is such a huge part of their identity, that it must be defended with such bile and vitriol.

I sense great things in the future of this thread.

Quote from: Settembrini;383367I am anything but a casual gamer. But most of my firends, players, sex partners and relatives are.

I find myself in a similar situation and want to create more casual gamers. I see interest in gaming generally decreasing on a steady scale as the complexity of the game rules used increases.

I'm considering rules light to be what I said earlier in this thread. Games like Mongoose Traveller, d6 Star Wars, Basic D&D, and its retorclone Labyrinth Lord. I do not have enough experience with Savage Worlds, but I wouldn't exclude it.

My criteria here is nebulous, but can be summed in the statement, "I want a game that is easy to learn, easy to play, and is designed so that it is more interesting and entertaining to play the game for the Players than it is for them to game its rules."