Quote from: two_fishes;372057This sort of thing is one of the reasons I think it's always worthwhile to have a session or discussion of some kind before the game proper begins. You don't just generate characters, you discuss what the setting is like, and what it means to have these characters in this setting, and talk about ways to make it coherent and hooky for both the players and the GM.

I do this all the time for my Majestic Wilderlands I call it the Pre-Game from Harn where I first read about the concept. It is useful not just in terms of you and your player talking (which is always good) but also as a way of influencing how the game is setup.

The two things that go with playing non-human races the first is kewl powers and the second is kewl culture. I found it is possible that you can make kewl culture work in favor of keeping the campaign human centric.  The trick is to have a variety of cultures that caters to the interest of your players. Plus have a setting that makes is plausible for many of those culture to interact.

Remember treasure and kewl powers doesn't have to be mechanics on a sheet. A 10 howling highland berserkers can be just as effective as a At-Will Flame bolt.

The pre-game give you and your player the chance to explore all what your setting has to offer. The player can ask question and you get to explain the implications of their choices. Including that playing that Dragonborn may not be best idea for where the campaign is located.

Quote from: two_fishes;372103Devas are obviously new agey spiritualists. Today we would call them Californians, but i dunno about in the 20s.

Oh, this is going to be Sword and Sorcery, Hyboria-Cthulhu not Arkham-Cthulhu.

Quote from: RPGPundit;372110I think that game SYSTEM design should consider what it wants. If you have 29 default PC-races, then you want a game world where there are 29 races that are majorly prominent all over the place, unless the premise of the entire game is that player characters ARE definitely Weird Outsiders.

If neither of those are true, and you have 29 pc races but the world itself has "mostly humans and a few elves and dwarves, and everything else is either nearly-extinct, super-rare  or far-away", and the default assumes that you're the local boys done good and not a collection of Freaks, then you've fucked up somewhere along the line.

What the game designer ought to do is say "ok, these are the major races: human, elf, dwarf, lizard-man" (or whatever) and make THOSE and only those his default PC races. He can have 25 other pc races presented as OPTIONAL races that the GM can then add or not to his own whim, depending on if the GM feels that he wants the game to have a high Freak Quotient or not.

I'll grant that there can be presentation issues. I mean, I've been doing this a while; I have no problem saying that the campaign I want to run only has these options. I've never actually had a player complain about not being able to play something... no, that's not true, I had someone demand to play a goblin once. But that worked out OK from my point of view.

On the other hand, I've been doing this a while. I do not expect novice GMs to have my confidence.

Quote from: Aos;372022Ironically, humans are the super rare, nearly extinct race in my setting (so much so that many think they are mythical creatures) and I've had human PCs in ever campaign I've run with it so far.

Whaile not mythical or super rare, humans are the third most populous race in Celtricia.  Hobyts and orcs are 1 and 2.

You keep talking about immersion for some reason.

As the GM I don't have TIME to be immersed in my setting. I'm too busy being the pika behind the curtain.

The players? They don't really care in my experience.  What JOE is doing is not as important for Frank's Immersion.

The problem I have is when you start 'limiting' the weird.  See, there are four to six guys around the table other than the GM. If only one guy gets to be the 'weird one', the other three to five are getting shafted.  It breeds resentment and 'me too-ism'.

The way I see it: If the setting has 'playable' half angels, then: regardless of how rare they are, if a player (or three) want to play one then they can. Its not that half angels aren't weird, its that they exist and therefore its possible for one to go adventuring.

It doesn't matter if there are only five 'playable' gold scaled lizard-wogs either. If a half angel happens to be hanging out with one of those five gold scaled lizard-wogs, well.... gosh.  Its possible, so why should I tell the players that its too weird and would 'never ever happen'.  And hey! They happen to have a buddy who happens to be a sentient rock? Well... sentient rocks exist, so it could happen.

I'm not there to arbitrate coincidence and lottery chances. I'm there to say what is, and is not, in the world.

Now, I can always say: Guys, no wierd in this one, m'kay.







Also: THe Hobbit: A party of dwarves led by an angel-wizard and accompanied by a halfling (which almost no one had heard of).

The LotR: Included the last scion of a superhuman line of kings, the only ever buddy-buddy relationship between an elf and a dwarf and not one but FOUR of those uber-rare halflings that no one had ever heard of... all led by the reincarnated form of an angel-wizard.  Humans were the fucking hirelings (not to MENTION the god damn Gollum....)

Just sayin'.

Quote from: Spike;372134You keep talking about immersion for some reason.

As the GM I don't have TIME to be immersed in my setting. I'm too busy being the pika behind the curtain.

The players? They don't really care in my experience.  What JOE is doing is not as important for Frank's Immersion.

The problem I have is when you start 'limiting' the weird.  See, there are four to six guys around the table other than the GM. If only one guy gets to be the 'weird one', the other three to five are getting shafted.  It breeds resentment and 'me too-ism'.

The way I see it: If the setting has 'playable' half angels, then: regardless of how rare they are, if a player (or three) want to play one then they can. Its not that half angels aren't weird, its that they exist and therefore its possible for one to go adventuring.

It doesn't matter if there are only five 'playable' gold scaled lizard-wogs either. If a half angel happens to be hanging out with one of those five gold scaled lizard-wogs, well.... gosh.  Its possible, so why should I tell the players that its too weird and would 'never ever happen'.  And hey! They happen to have a buddy who happens to be a sentient rock? Well... sentient rocks exist, so it could happen.

I'm not there to arbitrate coincidence and lottery chances. I'm there to say what is, and is not, in the world.

Now, I can always say: Guys, no wierd in this one, m'kay.







Also: THe Hobbit: A party of dwarves led by an angel-wizard and accompanied by a halfling (which almost no one had heard of).

The LotR: Included the last scion of a superhuman line of kings, the only ever buddy-buddy relationship between an elf and a dwarf and not one but FOUR of those uber-rare halflings that no one had ever heard of... all led by the reincarnated form of an angel-wizard.  Humans were the fucking hirelings (not to MENTION the god damn Gollum....)

Just sayin'.

Dude, you ripped off my LotR quote.
But those aren't PCs.  If you are letting your players be the last scion of a superhuman line of kings or the reincarnated form of an angel-wizard...well the game has balance issues.  
I mean, every game is different, and we have fun in different ways.   But we have to remember that the primary difference between a great book and a great game is that in the book, no one has to worry that Meriadoc's player is pissed off that his character is a useless burden for 80% of the game.

One of my favorite games is Talislanta, which doesn't really have "humans" in it, per se.

It does have, however, the Archaen races, which are the descendants of the old time über-race. They are basically the same race, and can interbreed, although they have wildly differing skin colors and other appearances.
They are sort of the humans of Talislanta. Having said that, there are a zillion other races, most of them expected to be played.
So, I don't really have a problem playing the unusual races.

It basically boils down to communication between the GM and his group. He should make it clear what kind of game he is running, and what sort of things are going to happen. In most groups that should work.
The problem arises when you get a player, or sometimes an entire group, that has "beautiful and unique snowflake" syndrome.
That one guy who wants to create a character sheet with stats that no one has ever seen before.
Sure, they SAY you can create a Human Fighter, and give him an interesting background and personality, and he'll likely become the core of the group, the regular joe everyone can relate to, but that would take actual roleplaying skill, and well, doesn't give that feeling of instant cool.
That's kind of the thing. The real weirdies don't fit in, and get old fast. The guy playing them doesn't seem to be in it for the long haul. He just wants that instant "Look at me! I'm cool!" gratification.

I am sure that most of you can give me an exception to that, and tell a story about a player who created the weirdest thing they could think of, and made it the greatest character in the game. And that's awesome. I just think that most people confuse an unusual character sheet with an unusual character.

Side note: I played Over the Edge once, which is set on earth, but also lets you play any weird thing you can think of. The characters were things like half-angels, and former military detectives. My character was an accountant whose exceptional ability was that he was really really likable. I enjoyed playing him.

Brian

Quote from: BillionsixMy character was an accountant whose exceptional ability was that he was really really likable. I enjoyed playing him.

That makes me really happy.  I like this.

Quote from: PaladinCA;372012This could be a fantasy thing. I see this happen all the time in fantasy settings that are supposed to be centered on Humans as the dominant culture.

But in Star Wars, a galaxy that is inhabited by hundreds of alien species, my players always choose to be Humans. No wookies. No Twileks. No Transdoshans. No Mon Calamari. No Rodians. No Devoronians. No Ithorians. Zero. Zip. Nada. All Human, all of the time.

I have no idea why.

Honestly, I think it is more of a Special Snowflake thing. In Star Wars games, I have seen this demonstrate itself by a Player's desire to be a Force-user of some kind. It isn't tied as specifically to race as to genre, i.e. Force-users are the special ones in the Star Wars universe.

Quote from: Spike;372134Also: THe Hobbit: A party of dwarves led by an angel-wizard and accompanied by a halfling (which almost no one had heard of).

The LotR: Included the last scion of a superhuman line of kings, the only ever buddy-buddy relationship between an elf and a dwarf and not one but FOUR of those uber-rare halflings that no one had ever heard of... all led by the reincarnated form of an angel-wizard.  Humans were the fucking hirelings (not to MENTION the god damn Gollum....)

In some ways the 'vanilla fantasy' world is one where the Fellowship of the Ring are typical.

Quote from: LordVreeg;372143Dude, you ripped off my LotR quote.
But those aren't PCs.  If you are letting your players be the last scion of a superhuman line of kings or the reincarnated form of an angel-wizard...well the game has balance issues.  
I mean, every game is different, and we have fun in different ways.   But we have to remember that the primary difference between a great book and a great game is that in the book, no one has to worry that Meriadoc's player is pissed off that his character is a useless burden for 80% of the game.

Two points:

1: At what point does Gandalf or Aragorn ever reveal themselves to be more powerful than a typical player character... much less their fellow PC's?  Hell, man, in Old SKool D&D gandalf was 5th level by Canon from what I've heard. The only thing about being a superhuman scion of an ancient line of kings that made a damn lick of difference was that Aragorn got to be king at the end of the story.  Both the damn Elf and the Damn Dwarf got hella more kills than he did.

2: That's a group dynamic issue. I've got 'useless' characters at my table now and no one gets pissed that they are being carried because I, the GM, set the challenges up for the party as they are, not as they should be.  In the D&D game I play in twice a month, the Druid/arcane hierophant is fucking useless because he never does shit and that pisses off half the players.  Because he won't, not because he can't.  A lot of it has to do with the players attitudes. Maybe Merry's player is a charming bastard and everyone wants him to game with them because he tells the filthiest fucking jokes they ever heard?  And its a great game because of it.

Quote from: Spike;372347Hell, man, in Old SKool D&D gandalf was 5th level by Canon from what I've heard.

Counter-sense, to me. There's no such thing as "canon" in Old School D&D, if you exclude EGG's grandstanding of what AD&D was supposed to be and remain officially (TM) for TSR to retain the control of the game's IP, of course.

Quote from: Peregrin;372013It's one of the issues I have with the diversity of races in 4e and WotC's insistence on working nearly every one of them into a campaign setting.  

Yes!

Seanchai

Quote from: Spike;372347Two points:



2: That's a group dynamic issue. I've got 'useless' characters at my table now and no one gets pissed that they are being carried because I, the GM, set the challenges up for the party as they are, not as they should be.  In the D&D game I play in twice a month, the Druid/arcane hierophant is fucking useless because he never does shit and that pisses off half the players.  Because he won't, not because he can't.  A lot of it has to do with the players attitudes. Maybe Merry's player is a charming bastard and everyone wants him to game with them because he tells the filthiest fucking jokes they ever heard?  And its a great game because of it.

Yeah, more times than not regardless of system, uberness and special snowflake status are something a player makes for himself as opossed to having it handed to him by system quirks.
Also I think Merry's player probably gives good head, if you can get past the goatee.

Quote from: Spike;372347Hell, man, in Old SKool D&D gandalf was 5th level by Canon from what I've heard.

I think this is from Dragon magazine, but not by one of the creators of the game:


by Bill Seligman

What?? I hear you scream. Impossible, you cry; Gandalf was at least 30th, 40th, even 50th level!! After all, he was an Istari, and he had lived at least 2000 years! Oh, really?, I reply. Let us take a look at all the magic he ever performed, and see what was so high level about him.

First, let us leaf through the Hobbit. In order, Gandalf's spells were: 1) To make fancy colored smoke rings and have them fly about the room. This is no more than a variant on Pyrotechnics, with perhaps a bit of Phantasmal Force mixed in. 2) Tricking the trolls with Ventriloquism, a first level spell. 3) Lightning Bolts from his staff to kill the Orcs as they kidnapped the Dwarves and Bilbo. Third level spell. 4) Pyrotechnics to confuse the Orcs to rescue the Dwarves and Bilbo. Second level spell. 5) Lighting the way for the Dwarves and Bilbo while in the caves, with a glow from his staff. Second level spell. 6) Making pine cones catch fire and tossing them down upon the Wargs from a tree. A variant on Fireball, Pyrotechnics, and even the Druid spell Produce Flame. It is not specifically a spell mentioned on the D&D lists, but it is not terribly powerful all the same. 7) Tossing Sauron out of Dol Gul-dur. He did this in combination with the White Council, and so this does not count as an individual effort. (Besides, as I shall later show, Sauron was no more, or not much more, than 7th or 8th level.) A combination of either Lightning Bolt or Light from his staff to warn the "good" side of the Battle Of Five Armies to get together, as you wish. Depending on the spell system you use, you may be able to change these figures by a level or two, but so far Gandalf has shown no abilities above 5th level.

Now, let us go to The Fellowship of The Ring. 1) His fireworks display at Bilbo's party: again, assuming they were magical, which does not have to be true, a variant on Phantasmal Forces, Pyrotechnics, etc. No more than second level. 2) Lightning Bolt battle with the Nazgul. Third level spells. (All right, if you wish to call the taming of Shadow-fax magical, O.K. After the episode at the gates of Moria, there is no reason why Gandalf could not speak Equine, but a "Charm Animal" spell would be easier than Charm Person anyway.) 3) Adding fighters to the foam of the river that was overflowing the Nazgul. Phantasmal Force, perhaps a variant on Monster Summoning I (since we have not a hint as to the level of these fighters). 4) Lighting a fire in the middle of the snowstorm. A touch of Fireball, or even Produce Flame. (Note here Gandalf reveals how even this simple bit of magic can be detected for such a large distance. This shows the magical "weakness" of Tolkien's Middle Earth. Ah ha, you say, I see where you are wrong! Hold on, I'll come to that point later.) To continue: 5) the flames when fighting the Wargs. Variant on Fireball, 3rd level. 6) Lighting the way in Moria. 1st level spell. 7) Fighting the Balrog. In his description of the battle, it seems to me he used only, or mostly, Lightning Bolts, with perhaps some Fireballs if you are generous. Still only third level. Being resurrected. But this is not done by Gandalf, he was "sent back"back" and therefore had nothing himself to do with the feat.

On to The Two Towers: 1) The bursting into flame of Legolas' arrow. A mild Fireball, perhaps even an unusual form of Protection from Normal Missiles. 2) The awakening of Theoden. A combination of Lightning, Light, and Darkness. No more than 3rd level. 3) The breaking of Saruman's staff. This could have been a natural result of one Istari saying that to another, a mild Charm Person effect, or something of that nature. It is not spectacular enough, in any case, to go beyond third level spell-casting.

And now, The Return of The King: 1) The beams of light used to rescue Faramir. No more powerful than Lightning Bolt, for all the effect they had. They could have been the 3rd level spell Firebeam described in, I believe, Alarums and Excursions #12. 2) In the Battle of Slag Hills, when Gandalf should perhaps have used the maximum amount of his powers, he did nothing mentioned in the book. Perhaps he used Lightning Bolt of Fireball/-beam, but still this is no higher than 3rd level spells. 3) Talking mind-to-mind with Elrond and Galadriel. You don't need any more than ESP to make this work.

And that is it. If I have left any spells out, like Gandalf using the
Hold Portal or Wizard Lock in Moria, it is not intentional. But I do not think that they would go beyond 3rd level. If the words I have used such as "variant" make you think that he must have been at least 11th level to research the spells, remember that he had his Staff, and the ring Narya the Great, which was associated with fire-type spells anyway. Since he was forced to use them several times, when, as I have shown, a 5th level mage did not need them, perhaps he was even less than 5th level, but I shall not try to press my point too far. If you ask how he lasted so long battling a Balrog, I reply that that is a fault with the D&D combat system, so the point that a 5th level mage could not withstand the blows of the 10th level Balrog does not quite hold water. (I am referring only to the Balrog in D&D, not including the Eldritch Wizardry characteristics, as this type of Balrog is usually said to be too weak for a true Tolkien Balrog. In fact, when placed in perspective with Gandalf's battle with one, the Balrog described by Gygax and Arneson originally was of normal strength. As far as I am concerned, the type VI demon is a type VI demon, not a Balrog.) As for Sauron: without going to too much detail, Clairvoyance, ESP, and perhaps an advanced Wizard's Eye, with much longer ranges than described in D&D. But since he had the Palantir, maybe he let the thing do most of the work for him, and his "Red Eye". If you are going to be nasty, then let him have Control Weather, which makes him 12th level. Still not spectacular, when there are those who regard Sauron as 75th level or so.

So how do we reconcile our intuition with the bare facts? Well, for one thing, as I hinted above, the universe of LOTR was magic-weak. It is easy to assume that it was run by " a very tough DM" who rewarded experience so slowly that it would take 2000 years for a pseudo-angel to get to the 5th level, and 6000 years or so for an EHP to reach 12th. But it is still unsettling. I would rather place the blame on the scale we are using: the D&D magic system. It seems a more likely thing for Gygax and Arneson to misjudge the spell levels. So what can we do? Change the spell system, the experience system or the levels of the spells, or all of the above? What is your response?