Quote from: CRKrueger;360938You don't need to share narrative control about the setting, (...) don't need to have every player write down a 25-page backstory (...)

What you need is a good GM. [and players - Ed.]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, most of this new school RPG design philosophy is trying to code into mechanics a crutch for poor GMs.

You've got my complete agreement there.

Quote from: Benoist;361944Either we fit your description of assholes...

You're borderline. We've had this discussion before.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;361957You're borderline. We've had this discussion before.

Seanchai

The sentiment is still quite reciprocal.

Quote from: Sigmund;361948Says someone who responds like a jackass all the time.

I think you're confusing content with approach.
 

Quote from: Sigmund;361948You're simply trying to engage in misdirection to take the focus off yourself.

Shrug. I don't need misdirection.

Quote from: Sigmund;361948That was my response to your insult.

That's the thing - I didn't insult you.

Quote from: Sigmund;361948Plus, I'm curious now why you seem to be saying you wanted a conversation. Do you often insult people in the normal course of conversation?

No. And, again, nor did I insult you.

Quote from: Sigmund;361948You took something I said, by quoting it directly, and deliberately belittled it...

Let's stop here. Saying your idea is silly is insulting you? Really?

Moreover, I basically said it was silly. I didn't jump up and down, pile on the hyperbole, etc.. I didn't say, "Jesus! This is the worst fucking idea I've ever come across! What mouth-breaking moron came up with that piece of drivel?!" I said it wasn't any better than Champions of Honor.

If you're going to get that bent out of shape over a comment about an idea you had, I think the Internet is the wrong place for you, much less this forum.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;361960I think you're confusing content with approach.

Irrelevant and inaccurate.

QuoteShrug. I don't need misdirection.

Yet you're using it anyway.

QuoteThat's the thing - I didn't insult you.

So you directly quote me posting this...

Quote from: Sigmund... I was a player in a campaign and created a group called "Dwarven Bouncers".

and respond...

Quote from: SeanchaiSo Champions of Honor is silly, but Dwarven Bouncers is divine?

Whereupon AM posts...

Quote from: Abyssal MawPeople do this all the time- they come up with little details about their pre-campaign character's life- ("my character used to be a part of a mercenary company" or "back when my character was still learning magic..") in every single campaign of every edition I've ever played.

which you quote directly and respond...

Quote from: SeanchaiYeah. I'm just...amused by the folks who snicker at Champion of Honor and then produce ridiculous contributions themselves. That's the trouble with pointing and laughing at someone else's ideas - you'd better be damn sure you can do better.

Seanchai

and you're telling me this was not meant to insult or ridicule? After that you went on to try and show how you were justified in ridiculing me by posting stuff like...

Quote from: SeanchaiAs we can see, making fun of people's contributions is not the way to a happy group or happy players. People can have wildly disproportionate responses to the word "silly" when they feel vulnerable.

... as if you're teaching a class on internet etiquette, and further reposting....

Quote from: Seanchai"I'm just...amused by the folks who snicker at Champion of Honor and then produce ridiculous contributions themselves. That's the trouble with pointing and laughing at someone else's ideas - you'd better be damn sure you can do better."

"As we can see, making fun of people's contributions is not the way to a happy group or happy players. People can have wildly disproportionate responses to the word "silly" when they feel vulnerable."

Seanchai

... as if your unfounded responses actually speak for themselves, when your whole basis is founded on a completely inaccurate reading of what I wrote.

QuoteNo. And, again, nor did I insult you.

If your answer to my above question is really no and your posts were not meant to insult then I retract everything I've posted. I don't yet believe that is the case though, especially since others seemed to perceive it as a deliberate slam as well. I believe you meant to somehow be witty at my expense and failed miserably because you thought I wrote something I in fact didn't. I called you on this, including liberal amounts of profanity because I can and enjoy doing so, and you have yet to even acknowledge that you even might have been mistaken in the first place.

QuoteLet's stop here. Saying your idea is silly is insulting you? Really?

Moreover, I basically said it was silly. I didn't jump up and down, pile on the hyperbole, etc.. I didn't say, "Jesus! This is the worst fucking idea I've ever come across! What mouth-breaking moron came up with that piece of drivel?!" I said it wasn't any better than Champions of Honor.

If you're going to get that bent out of shape over a comment about an idea you had, I think the Internet is the wrong place for you, much less this forum.

Seanchai

No, what I got bent out of shape over was you first ridiculing what I posted then trying to justify said ridicule by inaccurately implying I had been making fun of the example's "Champions of Honor" in the first place, thereby apparently justifying your ridicule in your own mind at least. You make a big issue out of calling people on their shit around here, but when you get called on yours suddenly I'm the one over-reacting or blowing things out of proportion. Let me throw ya a bone... maybe I am over-reacting, but once again that's a misdirection because it doesn't excuse your initial behavior. My over-reactions would make both of us assholes instead of just you. I'll go ahead and own that, I can be an asshole sometimes and I'm also the first one to admit it. Whether you are brave enough to own your behavior is up to you.

...Well, I wasn't insulting you, anyhow. I still think it's a good technique.

The point is: it's just a technique, not a rule.We only get all the hand wringing and tears here because it appeared in a D&D4E book, but that kinda of advice has appeared in other books, other game systems before. It's just Robin Laws doing the thing he always does.

They have cheap clean hookers in Vegas.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;361967...Well, I wasn't insulting you, anyhow. I still think it's a good technique.

The point is: it's just a technique, not a rule.We only get all the hand wringing and tears here because it appeared in a D&D4E book, but that kinda of advice has appeared in other books, other game systems before. It's just Robin Laws doing the thing he always does.

No, I didn't take anything you posted as an insult. You didn't post anything insulting and you didn't reference me directly anyway. I don't even disagree with you, although I would prefer the approach The Shaman mentioned rather than just making up campaign details on the fly... unless one were making up said details as a part of a bluff, like I described in my original post to this thread.

Quote from: Aos;361971They have cheap clean hookers in Vegas.

Reno too.

Here's a perfect example of a good use of the technique from my Friday night game:

The PCs learn there is a doppleganger in the area helping out the evil dragon.  One of the PCs, whose backstory involved being enslaved to a necromancer, mentions something about his former master having a doppleganger ally and wondering aloud if it was the same guy.

The doppleganger ally had never been mentioned before in his background; the player just threw it in as a suggestion.  It will actually work great, because the whole point of the doppleganger character is that he is a death cultist (though the PCs haven't discovered that yet) which would make him a natural ally of necromancers.

The reason I like it here is:
A) The player only suggested it as a possibility, not a foregone conclusion.
B) He took pre-existing pieces of the campaign and suggested how to tie them together, rather than just inventing random shit (like elite groups of champions) out of thin air.
C) It adds to the story and motivates his character, but isn't something that gives him any kind of unfair advantage (like, say, inventing a poorly-named group of elite champions).

Quote from: Sigmund;361964...and you're telling me this was not meant to insult or ridicule?

Yep, that's what I'm telling you. Moreover, I'm still waiting for the part where I insult you. I basically said your idea was silly and that those making fun of other's ideas generally can't do much better themselves. And, again, I did so in a rather matter-of-fact, unspectacular manner. If you consider that an insult, ridicule, or directed at you as a person, well, shrug.

Quote from: Sigmund;361964I called you on this...

No. You overreacted and involved a lot of needless profanity and personal attacks. If that makes you feel better about yourself and the situation, okay. It is not, however, some kind of victory outside of that.

Seanchai

Quote from: jgants;361984C) It adds to the story and motivates his character, but isn't something that gives him any kind of unfair advantage (like, say, inventing a poorly-named group of elite champions).

I'm not sure how the example gave the player an unfair advantage. It didn't say he was asking for more dice, or that being a member of the order would grant him special privilege. It seemed to be something added to give some colour and meaning to his persuade roll (or diplomacy, or whatever) and that's it.

Quote from: two_fishes;362091I'm not sure how the example gave the player an unfair advantage. It didn't say he was asking for more dice, or that being a member of the order would grant him special privilege. It seemed to be something added to give some colour and meaning to his persuade roll (or diplomacy, or whatever) and that's it.

In the example given there is no unfair advanatge, it was just the player being creative and the suggestion that the Dm honor that creativity. All technique. So I agree.

Quote from: Seanchai;362084Yep, that's what I'm telling you. Moreover, I'm still waiting for the part where I insult you. I basically said your idea was silly and that those making fun of other's ideas generally can't do much better themselves. And, again, I did so in a rather matter-of-fact, unspectacular manner. If you consider that an insult, ridicule, or directed at you as a person, well, shrug.



No. You overreacted and involved a lot of needless profanity and personal attacks. If that makes you feel better about yourself and the situation, okay. It is not, however, some kind of victory outside of that.

Seanchai

Ya know, I've changed my mind. I thought what you posted was done so in a smug and pretentious way, but regardless I will accept what you post at face value and say that I retract what I posted and apologize for the "needless profanity and personal attacks".

Quote from: Sigmund;362113Ya know, I've changed my mind. I thought what you posted was done so in a smug and pretentious way, but regardless I will accept what you post at face value and say that I retract what I posted and apologize for the "needless profanity and personal attacks".

I appreciate it, but that's not necessary.

Seanchai