Quote from: Benoist;361848I think the idea of powers as game units that translate in terms of rules balance across the board, from class to class, is a good one. I find the implementation to be poor at the very least, but the idea itself is interesting.

At times I wonder whether balancing powers can be done in a more flexible system, such as a point buy type system without any formal classes.  In such a point buy system, something like a ranger's "twin strike" power along with a barbarian's "rage points" would be ripe for abuse by muchkin powergamers.

Quote from: Benoist;361848Another good idea is the concept of rests, short and extended. That's interesting because it helps tailor recovery to the specs of a particular gaming group, if you're a bit liberal with the rules and reinterpret them to fit the campaign, and also helps give more dimensions to the game's bean-counting than just "once per day/after sleeping for X hours I can do this or that".

In practice this can also be abused very easily, with the "15 minute day".  In my previous 4E games, it was typical for the players to go back to town or set up camp and sit around for the rest of the day, when they have used up all their daily powers.  This was typically after one or two encounters.

What ends up happening, is that daily powers functionally become "encounter" powers in practice.  It completely defeats the purpose of daily powers.

Quote from: ggroy;361855At times I wonder whether balancing powers can be done in a more flexible system, such as a point buy type system without any formal classes.  In such a point buy system, something like a ranger's "twin strike" power along with a barbarian's "rage points" would be ripe for abuse by muchkin powergamers.

It'd be a system clearly not appropriate for gamers squeezing every single advantage they can out of the rules, since by nature it'd be very easy to abuse. But it would be great for some more free-form gaming groups with a good spirit of cooperation around the game table, for sure.

Quote from: ggroy;361857In practice this can also be abused very easily, with the "15 minute day".  In my previous 4E games, it was typical for the players to go back to town or set up camp and sit around for the rest of the day, when they have used up all their daily powers.  This was typically after one or two encounters.

What ends up happening, is that daily powers functionally become "encounter" powers in practice.  It completely defeats the purpose of daily powers.

That's where you come down to the idea that no rules' so-called "fixes" can ever fix the players' behaviors themselves. In other words, if the problem is with the players thinking in terms of rules and metagame issues, instead of acting in-character and pressing on even if they just used their daily, then you're screwed unless you address the issue at the game table itself.

Trusting some rule to fix a behavioral issue at the game table is doomed to fail from the very start, since the premise is flawed itself from the outset. What's interesting is that there are so many gaming groups out there who wait for the next game or edition to address their own particular issues. Makes me think of Einstein's famous quote: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Indeed.

Quote from: Benoist;361862That's where you come down to the idea that no rules' so-called "fixes" can ever fix the players' behaviors themselves. In other words, if the problem is with the players thinking in terms of rules and metagame issues, instead of acting in-character and pressing on even if they just used their daily, then you're screwed unless you address the issue at the game table itself.

The only fix I tried which eliminated the "15 minute day", was making the daily powers into encounter powers and also making the encounter powers into additional at-will powers.  I did this in my 2nd and 3rd last gaming sessions for my 4E game, before it finally ended.  The game was slowly falling apart anyways, and I for the most part cared less and less about strictly following the rules as written.

Quote from: ggroy;361865The only fix I tried which eliminated the "15 minute day", was making the daily powers into encounter powers and also making the encounter powers into additional at-will powers.

I never did understand how putting ALL character classes on a magic-user-like limit of how often they could do things was going to eliminate  the 15-minute day problem for groups that suffered from it. I figured that limiting everyone would just make everyone want to pack it in for the day after using up their "good" power slots (instead of just the mage types).

Quote from: RandallS;361873I never did understand how putting ALL character classes on a magic-user-like limit of how often they could do things was going to eliminate  the 15-minute day problem for groups that suffered from it. I figured that limiting everyone would just make everyone want to pack it in for the day after using up their "good" power slots (instead of just the mage types).

Eliminating the "15 minute day" probably wasn't on their priority list.

Quote from: RandallS;361873I never did understand how putting ALL character classes on a magic-user-like limit of how often they could do things was going to eliminate  the 15-minute day problem for groups that suffered from it. I figured that limiting everyone would just make everyone want to pack it in for the day after using up their "good" power slots (instead of just the mage types).

Same.  I've had groups start to hesitate because they blew all their good stuff on the first few encounters in an area.  

Or even worse, they carelessly blow all their powers early, and then the ensuing fights, because of their higher difficulty (but because they're still so balanced so they won't kill the party!) end up dragging.  There are some house rules dealing with this, but despite the simplicity of building an encounter BtB, I find it's actually fairly difficult (at least for someone who only plays 4e once in a while, like me) to put together an encounter that feels satisfying and doesn't turn into a grind fest -- your party either has to know exactly when to use their powers and not roll poorly, or you have to know which encounter builds can potentially lead to problem combats where things will drag.

QuoteEliminating the "15 minute day" probably wasn't on their priority list.

I thought they said it was?

Quote from: Peregrin;361878I thought they said it was?

No idea offhand.

Quote from: ggroy;361879No idea offhand.

Addressing the issue of the "15 mn adventure day" was a concern brought up in the previews leading up to 4e's release. The idea was to explain why some things had been changed the way they were - I seem to remember that in this instance, it was to explain why Vancian casting was removed altogether, in favor of the current power system.

Quote from: Benoist;361880Addressing the issue of the "15 mn adventure day" was a concern brought up in the previews leading up to 4e's release. The idea was to explain why some things had been changed the way they were - I seem to remember that in this instance, it was to explain why Vancian casting was removed altogether, in favor of the current power system.

Backfired to the n-th degree.

Quote from: ggroy;361883Backfired to the n-th degree.

It's not as bad as 3.x could be, especially because of encounter powers -- those help keep things moving.  No one is ever useless.  It's just a matter of whether the party wants to be working at optimal levels or average levels.  

If you have smart players who know when the best time to use a daily, and who make sure that they don't blow all of them, they won't run into those drawn out and/or possible TPK situations in the tougher fights (or the want to rest too often).  Dailies really help finish things up and can sometimes mean the difference between finishing a combat in a half-hour or an hour-and-a-half.

For a system focused on combat, I find that powers are acceptable.  Not my personal choice, but they work ok when utilized properly.

wow we used up our daily powers on a bunch of mooks and now can't finish the main battle.I have GMed 4th edition and have had several grueling long battles. the hit point inflation was not the best move the wizards staff had made.

Well, the powers are not the issue with the 15 minute adventuring day, really. Powers are just attacks. So you might have an attack that does (as an example) 3d10 instead of 1d10, and you can pull that off only once per adventure session. Resting doesn't matter at that point because even if you rest and recharge it.. it's still just a single attack.

The real issue is healing surges.

From my experience, most characters have around 8 surges (some have much more.., I have a gnoll swordmage that has 14) and most medium-competent parties can manage a battle with only losing 2-3 surges, but sometimes it will take more.

So yes, a medium-to-low competent party can fight about three major battles before needing an extended rest, but usually can fight a little more with a good healer, and there are tricks that highly competent parties can use to keep a party on it's feet without causing them to spend surges (astral seal, certain bardic powers, etc.. )

Living Realms adventures typically have at least 3 battles, (and almost no opportunity for an extended rest- I can only think of a couple that even entertain the possibility) but can also have much more. Complete newbies- even middle school kids-- usually have no problem staying alive for the duration.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;361895Well, the powers are not the issue with the 15 minute adventuring day, really. Powers are just attacks. So you might have an attack that does (as an example) 3d10 instead of 1d10, and you can pull that off only once per adventure session. Resting doesn't matter at that point because even if you rest and recharge it.. it's still just a single attack.

Some daily powers can be sustained from round to round, such as flaming sphere of the wizard.

I really liked the "Ritual" spells, since they required a feat that opened up some options for characters that were mere hedge wizards, but could say be sneaky or fight well. They also didn't eat into the "combat" spells that were needed under the new rules.