I've meant to post this some time ago. Somewhere around mid 2009 the second Dungeon Master's Guide for 4th Edition was released, and someone on Amazon wrote a noteworthy review. The review is by a fan of the edition, as you can gather from his review track on Amazon (from which also the text below is taken). I say this by way of preliminary since the review, especially posted on this site, would probably be considered straight flamebait if it didn't come from a fan who had written it in earnest. Anyway, enough of preliminary, enjoy the review. I'm sure Pundit is going to love it.

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Dungeon Master's Guide 2, a review by Jacob G Corbin RSS Feed (Prairie Village, Kansas United States)

As anyone who plays RPGs knows at this late date, the fourth edition of Dungeons & Dragons (or D&D4E) has engendered a lot of controversy in the community by breaking dramatically with the game's past in several key areas, replacing decades-old systems like "Vancian" casting and skill checks with power lists and collaborative skill challenges. Where did these innovations come from? "4E rips off World of Warcraft," say people who in most cases know very little about either. The truth is that a lot of 4E's mechanics and underlying philosophy were heavily influenced by the burgeoning independent RPG movement of recent years, a collection of writers and designers that have worked to stretch the boundaries of what is possible in the world of roleplaying games. Games without dice or any random elements, games without referees or dungeon masters, games without rules...a whole new world of strange delights that Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson could never have foreseen.

Influenced by these innovators, the people who made 4E went under the hood of Dungeons and Dragons and rebuilt it from the ground up. Nothing was sacred. We've seen the result of their efforts in the rules of the system to date, but now, with the release of Dungeon Master's Guide 2, we see the philosophy illustrated, not with rules, but with storytelling techniques that any DM, for *any* system, can profit from. Very little of the advice is specific to 4E, or even to Dungeons and Dragons. It shows you, with examples, how to harness the power of collaborative storytelling, how to enlist your players in worldbuilding and how to tell stories that engage everyone at the table.

Let me share my own story. The day after getting this I was due to begin a new game of Star Wars Saga Edition with a new group of people - some friends and some strangers - and I was stumped for what to do. I was having serious trouble coming up with characters and stories, and I dreaded showing up unprepared. But I took the advice from chapter 1 of this book and during character creation at the first session, I went around the table and had each of my players describe for me a positive relationship their character has with another PC, a negative relationship they have with another PC, and to name and describe an NPC that they have a relationship with. Here's the thing: that may sound basic, but often, many players have thoughts about their characters and the game as a whole that they never share with each other or with the group - but here, as we went around the table, the characters came to life, not only in their players' minds, but in each other's as well, and they began relating to each other with a level of excitement and drama that in the past took weeks or months of play to form. And meanwhile the players had, completely without knowing it, given me enough story fuel to last for months! The game has been a huge hit and the players love seeing the NPC and setting details they created reflected in the world around them. I've been DMing for two decades and that simple trick had never occurred to me, and now I'll never run another game without it.

The book is full of useful, practical advice like that. But there's a challenge inherent in much of the advice, and it involves being willing to let go a bit of the old ways of doing things. Many DMs are immensely possessive of "their" story and "their" world, and the suggestions in this book will sound like madness to them. They want to stick with what's worked for them. And I can't blame them for that, but what this book has shown me is that even in a field as well-trodden as Dungeon Mastering there are still new things to try. In a way, it's liberating, to realize that after all this time, I am still a learner.

As a follow up to the review I'm going to quote some salient bits of the book itself to show people what the author is on about. The chapter on "Collaborative World Building" introduces a technique it calls "Incidental Reference":

Quote from: 4E DMG, page 17Incidental Reference

This situation arises when a player makes an offhand remark, possibly as in-character dialogue, concerning a fact about the world. You [the DM] then treat it as true.
If you need to adjust the idea, do not interrupt an unfolding scene to footnote the setting detail. Wait until a suitable break in the action, and then go back and clarify.

A side bar then illustrates this concept (interestingly, the side-bar occurs before the definition above):

Quote from: 4E DMG, page 16DM's Workshop: Champions of Honor

In this example of an incidental reference, a player named Ed responds haughtily on behalf of his character, Erekam, when challenged by the sentinels at a city gate:

"I bang vigorously on my shield, showing them the emblem of my warrior order."
Ed has never before referenced and emblem on his shield, but since it's his character, he can introduce it without any adjustment by you [the DM].
"Do you recognize this symbol?" Ed exclaims, in his deep Erekam voice. "It identifies me as a member of the Champions of Honor!" Do you not know us?"
You [the DM] have never heard of the Champions of Honor. You reach for your notepad, ready to scrawl the necessary notation.
In character as the indiffierent guard, you scratch your head and say, "We don't receive visitors hereabouts, stranger."
"Why, for a hundred years the Champpions of Honor have protected the good folk of this region, driving off orcs and bandits alike!"
Through this exchange, Ed establishes that this organization exists as he has described and that Erekam belongs to it. After brainstorming for a moment, you prepare a bandit encounter - now someone can spot Erekam's shield, tell him about a brigand problem, and motivate the group's trip to the wilderness to engage them.

DMG 2 CONTENT UPDATE

Another aspect of collaborative storytelling the book introduces is this:

Quote from: DMG 2, page 17 Descriptive Control

When you grant partial descriptive control to your players, you allow them to specify what they see and hear in a scene.

A daring DM might let the PCs play in this sandbox if he or she feels confident enough to countermand advantages that players try to sneak into the situation.

The DM's Workshop sidebars "Tentacle Temple" and "Forks in the Road" provide examples of descriptive control.

Ok folks, now for the examples.

Quote from: DMG 2, page 18DM's Workshop: Tentacle Temple

In this example of a direct assertion, the party has entered a demon-occupied city.

"Do I see a watchtower?" Carlos asks you [the DM].
Before you can reply, Ben, feeling a creative surge, supplies an answer of his own: "Look! Over there! That horrible tower, rising from the central plateau! Oh, my goodness, its tiles writhe! And tentacles dangle from the spire!"
You might instinctively want to slap down this seizure of your narrative prerogative. Then you remember that you encouraged players to collaborate in building the world. You affirm Ben's idea by building on it.
"Yep, those tentacles, all right. A strange bird that looks like a black-feathered albatross circles slowly near the spire. Suddenly, a tentacle zaps out, like the tongue of a frog, and grabs the bird, pulling it into the tower. You hear a chewing noise."
"You mean the tower is alive?" Deena exclaims. She knows your DMing style indluces vivid details to encourage the PCs to move closer to explore. "Thanks a lot, Ben!" she jokes.

Quote from: DMG 2, page 17DM's Workshop: Forks in the Road
In this example of solicited input, the players are travelling along an ancient road through a dense forest.
[abbreviated. Players arrive at a fork in the road.]
This fork offers a decision point to the PCs, as wlel as a chance to tailor its branches to their interests. Ben and Deena dominated an earlier interaction scene, so you solicit input from Amy and Carlos.
"Amy, you've heard that something dangerous lies to the west. What is it?" [the DM asks]
Amy thinks for a moment. "Um, it's bird people. I hate bird people."
For a moment, you panic. You don't have stat blocks for any bird people. But you realize that [...you can winge it.] You affirm Amy's choice by adding a new detail.
"Oh yes," you reply. "They have a new leader, Radak, who has sworn vengeance on all mammals."
"No, you fucking twat. 'Mammals' is a fucking anachronism. I'll have none of that shit in MY game, DM," Amy replies. [Ok, I made that up. Rest of the sidebar compressed. The DM solicits the other player's input, Carlos', as to what lies east. After that's established...]
Now that the players have established their options, they debate the merits of the two choices: Do they head towards the hostile bird people, or do they explore the haunted pagoda?

I could go on, but you get the gist. I submit these passages to indicate where the review author is coming from.

Two words: Robin. Fucking. Laws.

Wouldn't know this book from the next, but I can see how a whole chapter of the RPG family would hate hate hate it.

DM: You are all at a tavern. Describe yourselves.
 
Player: I'm human and I have a mace and shield. You see an emblem on my shield that says "Swine did not freeking invent this."
 
Edit: You [the DM] have never heard of that order. You reach for your notepad, ready to scrawl the necessary notation.

If I heard a Player claim he was part of the "Champions of Honor", I'd have to stop laughing first before writing that down as a note.

First off, I'm just going to say what a lame "review" this guy had.  If nothing else, it barely gave any idea of what to expect from the product and was basically just a soapbox for him to prattle on, even to the point of including a boring and barely relevant anecdote.  How lame.

That said, I do think DMG 2 was a good book with a lot of good advice and is great for people who don't have decades of gaming experience and who have never heard of someone like Robin Laws (or even people who do, like myself, who have still never heard of RL other than from references I've seen the past few years here and at tbp).

Personally, I'm not big on the "Incidental Reference" section, though, and the example is terrible (and, as jeff mentions, quite laughable).  

I have used a similar technique, but it usually takes the form of a player asking me if there is something their character needs (like a particular shop in town) or if there is a particular type of person the character knows (some kind of contact) and me telling them to decide on whether there is and what form it takes and then I help shape it into something appropriate for the campaign.  I would never let a player introduce some cheesy "Champions of Honor" group out of thin air.

I let my kid do that.

I know better than to let the adults I game with do that.

My son has all kinds of undefined narrative control over the Star Wars game I run for him, but I do it subtly...although when he wanted to name an NPC Clone Trooper "Ben 10", we had negotiations that turned it into "Ben Wizard 101" before it finally settled on "Ben Wizard".

Quote from: jeff37923;360799If I heard a Player claim he was part of the "Champions of Honor", I'd have to stop laughing first before writing that down as a note.

Wouldn't you be tempted to subvert it? I mean make then a band of notorious drunks or a travelling theatrical group, or an all women hobbit wrestling team ?

I'd make "Champions of Honor," some sort of ultra-conservative, yet armed and dangerous, group of loonies who go around and fight for (meaning engaging in combat on someone's behalf) virgins.  

Being angry, armed and virgins themselves they take their sexually-denied drive and channel it into bashing heads like the white knights they wish to be!

Lo, the shame when one of their members fails a "purity test."

Quote from: jibbajibba;360821Wouldn't you be tempted to subvert it? I mean make then a band of notorious drunks or a travelling theatrical group, or an all women hobbit wrestling team ?

I'd be tempted to subvert it, but the name just brings forth memories of every Lawful Stupid Paladin  that I have ever had to suffer through in a game. That is subversion enough...

Quote from: jibbajibba;360821Wouldn't you be tempted to subvert it? I mean make then a band of notorious drunks or a travelling theatrical group, or an all women hobbit wrestling team ?

Quote from: Danger;360829I'd make "Champions of Honor," some sort of ultra-conservative, yet armed and dangerous, group of loonies who go around and fight for (meaning engaging in combat on someone's behalf) virgins.  

Being angry, armed and virgins themselves they take their sexually-denied drive and channel it into bashing heads like the white knights they wish to be!

Lo, the shame when one of their members fails a "purity test."

Keep them coming. This DM has certainly reached for his notepad, more than ready to scrawl the 'necessary notations'.

Quote from: jgants;360807First off, I'm just going to say what a lame "review" this guy had.

Ohhhh, come on. This alone:

QuoteInfluenced by these [indy] innovators, the people who made 4E went under the hood of Dungeons and Dragons and rebuilt it from the ground up. Nothing was sacred.

is worth the price of admission. Imagine here the voice used for block buster trailers. WotC should have used it for their 4e promo trailer. Not that "ze game will remain ze zame" - not true, wrong accent, and quite lacking the punch of the above.

I'm with Malleus.  Us old, cranky Immersive Role-players have been engaging character's imaginations and having them come up with their own motivations and creating their own storylines cohesive with the shared setting for decades now.

You don't need to share narrative control about the setting, so that a player can, at the drop of a hat, write himself in as a member of a centuries-old lawkeeping organization that didn't exist 1 minute ago.

You don't need to have every player write down a 25-page backstory, most of which is just pulled out of their ass and isn't related to your campaign world because it's the same 25-page background they've used in 10 people's other groups.

What you need is a good GM.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, most of this new school RPG design philosophy is trying to code into mechanics a crutch for poor GMs.

Quote from: CRKrueger;360938You don't need to share narrative control about the setting, so that a player can, at the drop of a hat, write himself in as a member of a centuries-old lawkeeping organization that didn't exist 1 minute ago.

You don't need to have every player write down a 25-page backstory, most of which is just pulled out of their ass and isn't related to your campaign world because it's the same 25-page background they've used in 10 people's other groups.

Non-old, cranky Immersive Role-players don't need those things either.

Seanchai

QuoteGames without dice or any random elements, games without referees or dungeon masters, games without rules...a whole new world of strange delights that Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson could never have foreseen.

Oh yeah.  When I want rules-lite, borderline-freeform RP, I definitely think of the indie movement...:rolleyes: