Quote from: Hastur T. FannonRichard Dawkins thinks that the Archbishop of Cantebury doesn't really believe in God.  There's a fine reducto ad absurdum right there

(Here's my working:
1) Richard Dawkins believes that religious moderates "don't really believe in it." (from the Salon article)
2) Rowan Williams is a religious moderate (anyone want to dispute this?)
3) therefore...)

Until I have evidence that he's had a nice sit down and a cup of tea with The Eyebrows I find it hard to take him seriously on any subject other than evolutionary biology and maybe some areas of information theory

What he's attacking has no resemblence to the faith of CS Lewis, John Betjeman, Rowan Williams or myself.  Whatever he's attacking, it ain't Anglicanism.  It's a classic "true Scotsman" fallacy

I forget if you're British or not but if you watched The Root of All Evil there was indeed an Anglican priest who said pretty much that no, he doesn't believe in god, IIRC. Surveys done do show a particular lack of belief in what many would consider core Christian values and ideas and a retreat to 'parable' and 'moral storytelling' away from a biblical truth position.  The C of E in England is, pretty much, a supreme irrelevence with falling attendences and an increasingly secular feel. A great number of them may as well be humanist celebrants in drag.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonNo it's not

Sure it is.  Depends on the particular god being posited but depending on the attributes and deeds supposedly committed by that god they can be disproven thereby taking the god concept with them.

Creation, for example.
Or the making of a global flood.
Or the problem of evil.

...

...unbelievable.

Ahh, no, wait.  This is the internet.

Quote from: GRIMI forget if you're British or not but if you watched The Root of All Evil there was indeed an Anglican priest who said pretty much that no, he doesn't believe in god, IIRC.

Ah yes.  The "Sea of Faith" movement.  Remember we're the original "broad church"

Quote from: GRIMSurveys done do show a particular lack of belief in what many would consider core Christian values and ideas and a retreat to 'parable' and 'moral storytelling' away from a biblical truth position.

If you're talking about Christian Research's 2002 survey of Anglican Ministers both the structure and the methodology was dreadful (if you aren't that's the only recent study I know).  The sample was self-selecting and was given a set of statements and told to rate them from 1-5 on how much they believed it (5 meaning that they had no doubts whatsoever)

Question 1 was something like "Do you believe in God the Father, Creator and Sustainer of the Universe."

I consider myself a fairly mainstream Anglican, and, even on a good day, my answer could be anything from 1 to 5.  I could even produce a reasoned argument for why answering that question with a "5" is heresy

Quote from: GRIMThe C of E in England is, pretty much, a supreme irrelevence with falling attendences and an increasingly secular feel. A great number of them may as well be humanist celebrants in drag.

You know everyone talks about falling attendances, but no-one seems to know where it's happening.  We're bursting at the seams and another Anglican church in town has just completed a multi-million pound building programme to try and fit everyone in.  I think it's a problem in the way we're counting people.  I don't appear on church attendance figures because I don't go the 10am service

How can the CofE be an irrelevance when parents are doing all that hoop-jumping to try to get their children into church schools (incidentally, I don't think that this is a good thing)

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonHow can the CofE be an irrelevance when parents are doing all that hoop-jumping to try to get their children into church schools (incidentally, I don't think that this is a good thing)

I attended one as a child. In many cases they are simply the nearest, or only, school (As was the case with my rural upbringing). The church aspect is pretty much an irrelevence in the CoE schools for the parents, pupils and teachers. A going-through-the-motions. Christmas, maybe Easter, funerals and christenings. A way of marking time.

These new faith schools are a different and more sinister creature entirely.

Quote from: GRIMSure it is.  Depends on the particular god being posited but depending on the attributes and deeds supposedly committed by that god they can be disproven thereby taking the god concept with them.
Creation, for example.
Or the making of a global flood.

This is the "I have no need for that hypothesis." argument, right?  That it isn't necessary for a supernatural explanation for the phenomena we see around them, therefore there isn't a supernatural explanation, yes?

Personally, my God is the answer to the question, "Why is there something rather than nothing?"  Falsify that one baby!

Quote from: GRIMOr the problem of evil.

A separate argument and one that deserves it's own thread.  Personally, I don't believe in the existance of evil, just in an absence of good

Quote from: GRIMI attended one as a child. In many cases they are simply the nearest, or only, school (As was the case with my rural upbringing). The church aspect is pretty much an irrelevence in the CoE schools for the parents, pupils and teachers. A going-through-the-motions. Christmas, maybe Easter, funerals and christenings. A way of marking time.

Or it could be seen as a way of communicating our common myths and the common source for our morality, when these things were held in common by our society.  The CofE schools were originally set up by the church to ensure universal education - we paid for the buildings, but in return we'd get access

Nowadays our society doesn't hold any myths in common, but these schools still exist.  We need to teach our children why we believe what we believe, but I don't see how this can be done in a totally secular environment.  I still can't get my head round the Categorical Imperative and I'm in my thirties

Quote from: GRIMThese new faith schools are a different and more sinister creature entirely.

I agree entirely

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonThis is the "I have no need for that hypothesis." argument, right?  That it isn't necessary for a supernatural explanation for the phenomena we see around them, therefore there isn't a supernatural explanation, yes?

Biblical Literalist God Concept: Includes and is reliant upon a divinely caused global flood.
There is no evidence of such a flood (the evidence against which is comprehensive and covers geology, animal/human population migration and numerous other disciplines).
The flood, as described in the bible, never happened and was, in fact, poached from an earlier babylonian myth based on real events in a much more local area for which there is evidence.
God concept disproven and must be revised or discarded.
With all the revisions you end up with a largely meaningless god of the gaps.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonPersonally, my God is the answer to the question, "Why is there something rather than nothing?"  Falsify that one baby!

Why is a pretty meaningless question.  How is a much more meaningful question. For me the answer is 'we don't know yet' but you assume a divinity despite there being nothing pointing to a divinity. This gets similar very quickly to the 'This demands a creator!' argument which just ends up with an ever receding problem of who created that creator and that creator's creator and so ad infinitum.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonA separate argument and one that deserves it's own thread.  Personally, I don't believe in the existance of evil, just in an absence of good

That would still invalidate a swathe of god concepts since god is meant to be all good, all powerful and all present.  Therefore there couldn't be an absence of good since that would mean the god concept would be neither all powerful, nor omnipresent.

Quote from: GRIMWhy is a pretty meaningless question.  How is a much more meaningful question. For me the answer is 'we don't know yet' but you assume a divinity despite there bing nothing pointing to a divinity.

It's not a meaningless question to me.  For me at least, what points me towards there potentially being an answer to this question is my conviction that there is meaning, order and purpose to my existence.  This may be nothing more than a badly coded pattern matching algorithm, but it keeps me off the streets on a Sunday night.

Quote from: GRIMThat would still invalidate a swathe of god concepts since god is meant to be all good, all powerful and all present.  Therefore there couldn't be an absence of good since that would mean the god concept would be neither all powerful, nor omnipresent.

Hang on, what's going on here? Oh yes, word game with "absence".  "Absence of good" meaning a lack, loss or deprivation of something good

"The fault dear Brutus lies not in the stars but in ourselves"

Religion is only so evil as the people who use it for evil. People don't need a God to act like an asshole.

Quote from: JamesVReligion is only so evil as the people who use it for evil. People don't need a God to act like an asshole.

You, my man, just earned yourself a parade.

Quote from: JamesV"The fault dear Brutus lies not in the stars but in ourselves"

Religion is only so evil as the people who use it for evil. People don't need a God to act like an asshole.

What's the quote...

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
  --  Steven Weinberg

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonIt's not a meaningless question to me.  For me at least, what points me towards there potentially being an answer to this question is my conviction that there is meaning, order and purpose to my existence.  This may be nothing more than a badly coded pattern matching algorithm, but it keeps me off the streets on a Sunday night.

Indeed it probably is.
Why do you need an externally defined why? Isn't existing and having self determination, finding your own why, enough? How greedy. That's how the religious meme gets to people though, fear of the sheer scale of the universe, fear of insignificance, fear of death.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonHang on, what's going on here? Oh yes, word game with "absence".  "Absence of good" meaning a lack, loss or deprivation of something good

So you're redefining absent to mean something is there still?

Quote from: GRIMWhat's the quote...

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
  --  Steven Weinberg

That's a bad assumption considering the times people have suffered for what were said to be the best intentions. The sad thing is that religion has become an excuse for the wrongs we do, not only for the spiritual, but for those who don't like it as well.

Grim, if I were you I'd walk away from this thread.  You're not going to get anywhere with this lot.