Quote from: jrients;357115I find the initial question flawed.  Can we not agree that there is no way to keep free versions out of circulation?  It's only a matter of what back alleys of the internet such things would be pushed.  This hypothetical is therefore more impossible than a "ten desert island games" thread.  That aside, I think I would trade away the retroclones for old school D&D in the toy department.  The old school scene scene is a lot less important than getting more people playing the games.

Absolutely right. The real victory would be if a new, mass-produced, non-"special/collectors/limited edition" but rather a regular release of a "Classic D&D" were to come out from WoTC.

I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of "labyrinth lord" myself, if it would result in that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAbsolutely right. The real victory would be if a new, mass-produced, non-"special/collectors/limited edition" but rather a regular release of a "Classic D&D" were to come out from WoTC.

I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of "labyrinth lord" myself, if it would result in that.

So, after 30 years of failing to deliver that game, you'd still prefer WoTC because they're "official"? Goodness, Pundit, that's pretty un-progressive.

As an aside, imagine this conversation on another forum:

Fab4Pundit: I'd rather a regular album from Ringo and Paul on Apple. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last bootleg and import if it would result in that.

CompuPundit: I'd rather a regular update of Internet Explorer from Microsoft. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of Firefox if it would result in that.

MythosPundit: I'd rather comprehensive reprints from Arkham House. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Lovecraft e-book on the net if it would result in that.

BiblicalPundit: I'd rather an official Vulgate printing from the Vatican. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Gideon if it would result in that.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Quote from: RPGPundit;357273Absolutely right. The real victory would be if a new, mass-produced, non-"special/collectors/limited edition" but rather a regular release of a "Classic D&D" were to come out from WoTC.

The problem is what would such a release actually be? If it's a straight reprint of 1E AD&D or the D&D Rules Cyclopedia or B/X/C/M sets then that's way more backwards-looking that even the Cloners. If it's instead a modernized/cleaned up/re-edited/reworked version, who's going to do the modernizing,/cleaning up/re-editing/reworking? We've already seen WotC's idea of a properly and appropriately modernized/cleaned up/re-edited/reworked version of D&D, and it's called 4E.

Quote from: Kellri;357280As an aside, imagine this conversation on another forum:

Fab4Pundit: I'd rather a regular album from Ringo and Paul on Apple. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last bootleg and import if it would result in that.

CompuPundit: I'd rather a regular update of Internet Explorer from Microsoft. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of Firefox if it would result in that.

MythosPundit: I'd rather comprehensive reprints from Arkham House. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Lovecraft e-book on the net if it would result in that.

BiblicalPundit: I'd rather an official Vulgate printing from the Vatican. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Gideon if it would result in that.

:teehee:

Quote from: Kellri;357280So, after 30 years of failing to deliver that game, you'd still prefer WoTC because they're "official"? Goodness, Pundit, that's pretty un-progressive.

As an aside, imagine this conversation on another forum:

Fab4Pundit: I'd rather a regular album from Ringo and Paul on Apple. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last bootleg and import if it would result in that.

CompuPundit: I'd rather a regular update of Internet Explorer from Microsoft. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last copy of Firefox if it would result in that.

MythosPundit: I'd rather comprehensive reprints from Arkham House. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Lovecraft e-book on the net if it would result in that.

BiblicalPundit: I'd rather an official Vulgate printing from the Vatican. If that would happen, I'd hunt down and destroy every last Gideon if it would result in that.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

You're not understanding. Its not about "officialness". Its about having the capacity to mass-distribute the game to a new generation.

RPGPundit

QuoteYou're not understanding. Its not about "officialness". Its about having the capacity to mass-distribute the game to a new generation.

WoTC is in the business of mass-MARKETING. Mass-distribution OTOH, is what you're seeing with the retro-clones. If that distribution wasn't working, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Quote from: Kellri;357394WoTC is in the business of mass-MARKETING. Mass-distribution OTOH, is what you're seeing with the retro-clones. If that distribution wasn't working, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

WOTC is in mass-distribution. I can find WOTC products even in German game shops everywhere.

OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord, Mutant Future ... not so much.
Though there will be a German edition of LL -- "Herr der Labyrinthe" -- in regular (game store, not mass-) distribution soon.

No matter what, the question is still along the lines of "Do you want world peace at the cost of dismantling your armed forces?"

The proper answer is always: "Sure. You first."

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeWOTC is in mass-distribution. I can find WOTC products even in German game shops everywhere.

OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord, Mutant Future ... not so much. Though there will be a German edition of LL -- "Herr der Labyrinthe" -- in regular (game store, not mass-) distribution soon.

But only insofar as mass-distribution leads to mass(ive) profit potential. And that profit potential is what has made foreign-language translations both a very low priority and costly. The retro-clones represent an open opportunity for anyone, anywhere to do their own translation, print and sell it in their own country or abroad. In a country like China or Vietnam, I've had good quality, shop-bound books printed in quantity. LL for example costs me around $1.75/copy.

AFAIK, LL already has a couple of foreign language versions, and S&W is in the process of being translated. So far, no one has attempted OSRIC (but I've prepared a few template notes in Mandarin before failing my SAN check).

Quote from: Kellri;357423AFAIK, LL already has a couple of foreign language versions, and S&W is in the process of being translated. So far, no one has attempted OSRIC (but I've prepared a few template notes in Mandarin before failing my SAN check).

There's a French translation of Microlite74 in the works. I've been told there is a Russian translation floating around, although I've never seen it or I would provide a download or a link to one on my web site.

Quote from: MelanNo matter what, the question is still along the lines of "Do you want world peace at the cost of dismantling your armed forces?"

The proper answer is always: "Sure. You first."

Maybe the whole 'OSR story' should be told like an episode of 24. The agents of WoTC have but 1 day to stop embittered grognards from flooding the internet with free pdfs - which in the end turns out to be a twisted plot dreamt up in the HASBRO basement by the Vice-Pres. of Guerrilla Marketing in a misguided attempt to 'do what's right for the company'.

Quote from: Kellri;357394WoTC is in the business of mass-MARKETING. Mass-distribution OTOH, is what you're seeing with the retro-clones. If that distribution wasn't working, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Pundit's point is that the roleplaying industry needs a version of classic D&D in the mass market in order to be healthy. That the last couple of edition of D&D has cut of the game from the causal gamer.  This version needs to be in toy stores packaged in a way that is attractive to the mom and pop consumer.  I happen to agree with him on this point.

This version will not likely reignite a fad but will result in a steady stream of new gamers into the hobby to restore to make it a more sustainable industry for everybody from the top to the bottom.

What he is not getting is that it will have a minimal effect on the Old School Market as entrenched fanbases will allow Old School publishers to continue as before.  Old School publishers are not going to be flocking the new classic D&D either unless it is released under the OGL.

If that happen then the Old School will probably be split in half.  Half doing whatever they were doing before the release of classic D&D and the other half ramping up support for classic D&D. Plus you will see a increase in new publishers for classic D&D because now there an official version by Wizards they can use.

The fans who used the older books directly (like at Dragonsfoot and Knight-n-Knaves) and the collectors (like at Acaeum) will continue much as before. The only major problem is the slow increase in value and the increasing rarity of older physical copies. If Wizards reverse their PDF policy then this will cease being an issue for those who like to play the older edition directly.

Quote from: Kellri;357394WoTC is in the business of mass-MARKETING. Mass-distribution OTOH, is what you're seeing with the retro-clones. If that distribution wasn't working, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No, mass distribution would be if you could buy Labyrinth Lord at Toys R' Us shelves.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;357535No, mass distribution would be if you could buy Labyrinth Lord at Toys R' Us shelves.

RPGPundit

Or better yet, Wal-Mart.