Quote from: Mistwell;353929I love it.  Some of you guys are focusing on the content of what Joe linked to, and claiming that is why he was banned, as opposed to the actual stated reason why he was banned.

You put "actual" and "stated" together there as if the juxtaposition was natural and obvious.

I also linked to a post here from an EN thread on retro-clones.

Keeping the ghost of Joe haunting ENworld, just because he makes apposite posts.

Thank god Mistwell is here to be our conscience.  Who knows what sort of painfully accurate piss-takes of pompous industry gurus people would be linking to otherwise.

Hail Kellri, full of win.

Quote from: Mistwell;353929I love it.  Some of you guys are focusing on the content of what Joe linked to, and claiming that is why he was banned, as opposed to the actual stated reason why he was banned.

Joe linked to something not allowed at EnWorld.  It didn't matter WHAT it was that he linked to.  It could have been porn or whatever.  The only relevant fact was it was not allowed, AND HE KNEW, FOR SURE, UP FRONT, THAT IT WAS NOT ALLOWED.  He said that, in the thing he was linking to, that he knew it was not allowed.

That's why he was banned.  Not because it was about Goodman.  Not because it was criticism.  Not any of that bullshit strawman stuff.  He was banned for linking to something he knew damn well was not allowed on that board, because it had been previously deleted (for whatever reason).

And if someone left THIS board in a big huff claiming the mods were all assholes and he would never post again, and then he did in fact post again and did it in a manner that clearly broke the rules (like linking to a post previously deleted), almost everyone here would be calling them to task for it.

Joe, you were being a childish dick, and you know it.  Pretending it was about Goodman rather than you intentionally trying to get around a board rule by linking to a deleted post, after you left in a big whine at the mods, was an immature thing for you to do.

I love it too. What Joe did was a good thing, and the content of what he linked to was relevant to the discussion and thankfully hilarious. I also think that you have entirely too much sand in your vagina.

Don't try to kid anyone, and please don't start with this "strawman" bullshit. We know why he was banned, and not because of "breaking rules", but because the content of his posts raise uncomfortable, but relevant  questions that get some people riled up if asked. But if you want to have some cheese with your whine, go right ahead, because some of us are actually listening.

Quote from: Mistwell;353929And if someone left THIS board in a big huff claiming the mods were all assholes and he would never post again, and then he did in fact post again and did it in a manner that clearly broke the rules (like linking to a post previously deleted), almost everyone here would be calling them to task for it.

Wait....we have rules on this board?

Quote from: Joethelawyer;353952Wait....we have rules on this board?

Of course we do, you stupid fucking prick.  Ask again and I'll kill your dog.

Mistwell, dude, you're the only one who cares why Joe was banned. Giving him a lecture only makes you sound like a tv show high school principal.

Quote from: Mistwell;353929Joe linked to something not allowed at EnWorld.  It didn't matter WHAT it was that he linked to.  It could have been porn or whatever.  The only relevant fact was it was not allowed, AND HE KNEW, FOR SURE, UP FRONT, THAT IT WAS NOT ALLOWED.

Then the value of Joe's post is that it shows what is not allowed on ENWorld: Porn and criticizing Goodman.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;353910Goodman is being a little bitch, and as a public (sorta) figure if he can't handle a little bad press or commentary on his stupid he should get into a new industry or something.  I doubt the Bonsai tree community would cause him any butthurt.

I mean, its not like Joe said he fucked his mom in the ass or something.

He took Goodman to task, and Goodman came out like a tool.  Goodman keeps making posts to the internet that make him look even toolier.

I missed out on seeing this...could you perhaps provide a link to where it was that Joseph Goodman was whining publicly about what Joethelawyer posted?

Quote from: jrients;353931You put "actual" and "stated" together there as if the juxtaposition was natural and obvious.

Semantic argument? Really?

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;353936Don't try to kid anyone, and please don't start with this "strawman" bullshit. We know why he was banned, and not because of "breaking rules", but because the content of his posts raise uncomfortable, but relevant  questions that get some people riled up if asked. But if you want to have some cheese with your whine, go right ahead, because some of us are actually listening.

Oh come on...the guy knowingly and admittedly posted something that clearly violated the site's terms of service...and the reason he was banned was because of some conspiracy to stifle any and all criticism of WotC and their cohorts?

I've got to go with Occam's Razor on this one, folks.

My take on this whole thing is that The RPGSite is like a refugee camp for people chased off other forums by dissenting opinions, many of whom have obviously developed a persecution complex.

But don't take my word for it...why don't we put this to the test? When I have time, I will start two ENworld profiles and post a couple threads on the forums there...one criticizing WotC and 4E, and one criticizing Pathfinder and 3.x...and I will link them on a separate thread here...we'll see which ones the ENworld mods harass more...if at all.

Quote from: Mistwell;353929Joe linked to something not allowed at EnWorld.  It didn't matter WHAT it was that he linked to.  It could have been porn or whatever.  The only relevant fact was it was not allowed, AND HE KNEW, FOR SURE, UP FRONT, THAT IT WAS NOT ALLOWED.

The real point of contention is why Alzrius' original posting (which Joe preserved on his site) got deleted by the mods in the first place - this decision making all subsequent references to it illegal by Enworld's standards. As in: never link to material that the mods deleted from Enworld.

(To be honest, I don't understand the rule itself. It's one thing to remove content from the site itself, another to forbid people linking to preserved content as long as it isn't illegal by US law. But that just as an aside.)

In the case at hand, the deletion seemed a very poor choice, and the moderators now have to keep it up even when it is plain to see that there could have been much better ways of handling this... piece of satire. Which is why, in the thread Joe got banned, I linked this. It's a thread in which Joe himself takes the piss of the WotC CEO.

Now in my estimate, the WotC CEO is a more important guy than Goodman. And see what happens. Everyone appreciates the satire, and the mod says he agrees it's funny, even gives Joe "kudos for a good piece of satire" and then locks the thread due to inappropriety.

That, gentlemen, is a way to credit satire when it's done well and at the same time indicate that mocking certain figures in the RPG industry is not welcome since the board serves to make these people as welcome as everyone else (perhaps more).

There's a huge space between "not welcome" and "WE WILL DELETE THIS AND ALL FUTURE REFERENCES TO THIS WILL RECEIVE TEMPORARY BANS!!!". Now, when I pointed that out in the thread we're talking about (the current one, in which Joethelawyer received his 6 day ban), my post got deleted, and the mod issued a public warning to me. I should say, I'm fine with receiving a warning - my memory as to whether arguing with a mod in the open was legit on Enworld was a bit hazy - but simply deleting my whole post reminded me of the less palatable aspects of Enworld moderation.

That said, even such an incident can't blind me to the fact that discussing D&D 4E and WotC on Enworld has become a much, much more constructive affair since the days in which Joe (and shortly later, I) left it. Which is why I (now speaking for myself only) started to post there again.

Let's see...

Joe Goodman tells the world that he knows the RPG market better than anyone and should be regarded as a guru, then turns around and says, "holy fuck!  The RPG market isn't doing what I predicted!  Quick!  Tell me what I should sell!"

Consequently, people laugh loudly at his arrogance and hypocrisy and roll out an entirely apt and hilarious interpretation of his earlier comments, rendered even funnier by the utter failure of reality to live up to his pronouncements.

Then, ENworld, protecting its paying advertisers as hamfistedly as only ENworld can, prohibits and deletes the well-earned mockery.

Then, Shazbot79 rolls up and declares that anyone disrespectin' Goodman has a persecution complex.  Yep.  A shitload of people having a laugh at a tarred and feathered hypocrite screams "persecution complex".  Exactly who is being persecuted?

Also, shazbot has no idea what Occam's Razor dictates.  Everyone is laughing at Goodman, and Shazbot alone is defending him.  Occam's razor says what?

Perhaps an old cards saying will help: there's always a patsy at the poker table. If you've been at the poker table for 30 minutes and you don't know who the patsy is, you're the patsy. Look around. Do you see the patsy?

Quote from: Windjammer;353975discussing D&D 4E and WotC on Enworld has become a much, much more constructive affair since the days in which Joe (and shortly later, I) left it. Which is why I (now speaking for myself only) started to post there again.

I agree.  Hard to say what's motivating the relaxation of the mods, but I notice that talking about Hasbro there became less verboten after the long round of discussion here over ENworld's tendency to regard criticism of Hasbro the same way the Spanish Inquisition regarded criticism of the pope.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353977Then, ENworld, protecting its paying advertisers as hamfistedly as only ENworld can, prohibits and deletes the well-earned mockery.

Innocent until proven guilty, say I. As I say above, I'm wholly unclear as to why they deleted the satire, but given how much else flak Goodman caught on Enworld for his post - and given how basically nothing of that got deleted - I'm not sure I buy your explanation.

Fair enough.  If we want to play follow-the-money, I'd say it's because slapping ENworld members down for criticising non-Hasbro publishers is poor business sense, but booting people for posting outside links with caustic content falls within the limits of board sanitation.

Frankly, even I wouldn't place too much emphasis on my reading of the situation.  I'm hardly the most neutral commentator when it comes to ENworld's protection of publishers, although Occam's razor suggests that corporate reputations provide a bigger payback for the site than the opinions of members.

Quote from: Hairfoot;353977Then, Shazbot79 rolls up and declares that anyone disrespectin' Goodman has a persecution complex.  Yep.  A shitload of people having a laugh at a tarred and feathered hypocrite screams "persecution complex".  Exactly who is being persecuted?

Also, shazbot has no idea what Occam's Razor dictates.  Everyone is laughing at Goodman, and Shazbot alone is defending him.  Occam's razor says what?

You seem to misunderstand my position...

I'm not sticking up for Goodman...my argument has nothing to do with him.

My argument is about the ENworld forums and about why Joethelawyer was banned. My contention is that he was banned for knowingly breaking the community terms of service, rather than simply badmouthing the wrong cat.

The "persecution complex" to which I was referring is aimed at the numerous posters I've seen on this site who accuse communities like RPGNET and ENworld of having biased, one-sided moderation of their forums...to me this reeks of sour grapes mecause the majority opinion of WotC on these boards is seemingly the minority opinion on the aforementioned sites.