We use the term "sandbox" to describe a particular style of game play, but what in your opinion comprises the "sand" and what comprises the "box" for that style?

Sand-Story/Plot Hooks supplied by the GM that players can take or leave as they see fit

Box-The physical area/geography of the setting/game, whether predetermined or made up on the fly

The whole "box" aspect of it is not important. It's the sand with its enormous possibilities to utilize the material to imagine whole worlds without limitation that is what the sandbox is all about.

Quote from: Technomancer;337801Sand-Story/Plot Hooks supplied by the GM that players can take or leave as they see fit

Box-The physical area/geography of the setting/game, whether predetermined or made up on the fly

I would agree with this largely.  The 'terrain' you make with the sand is the on-going story, and the 'borders' provided by the box would determine the limits of that particular story, be it local, regional, global, or extending to the planes and beyond.

If the current plot is to raid the local dungeon, you would have a smallish 'box' to represent the region of influence that story has, and the 'sand' would just be the village, the dungeon, and the area between where the story plays out, largely.  Conversely, if there is a planar invasion, the 'box' would encompass that world, the plane it is on, and possibly another plane or more and the areas for adventuring in those.  The 'sand' would be vast, whole continents or worlds on that plane and several others.

Quote from: Technomancer;337801Sand-Story/Plot Hooks supplied by the GM that players can take or leave as they see fit

Box-The physical area/geography of the setting/game, whether predetermined or made up on the fly

Seems about right to me.

I guess the question is, do you as a GM have a pre-determined plan of any sort? In other words, do you know what events will happen when, regardless of player actions? Do you know what locations exist where, regardless of where the characters go?

Quote from: Mistwell;337818In other words, do you know what events will happen when, regardless of player actions?

I have an idea of how events will unfold subject to the players actions or or failures to act.

Quote from: MistwellDo you know what locations exist where, regardless of where the characters go?

The level of detail varies, but I have a sense of the game-world. If it's action taking place in a city, for example, I know the major landmarks and the places relevant to significant npcs in the setting.

I think all misinterpretations of how exactly sandbox play works stem from not having read the 1st Edition AD&D DMG and not trying to run a game using all of the rules in that book.  If you do so, you will at length have an epiphany and realize that despite the size and seeming breadth of that book, it is truly a comprehensive guide for a single extremely narrow kind of campaign.  It runs this kind of campaign extremely well.

The best way I can summarize sandbox play is that the GM is playing Sim City and the PCs are all playing Nethack.

Quote from: Silverlion;337804The whole "box" aspect of it is not important. It's the sand with its enormous possibilities to utilize the material to imagine whole worlds without limitation that is what the sandbox is all about.

I'm not so sure about that. The box is the frame that holds the stuff in. The sand is for the players to shape as they see fit.

See, I have thought more along the lines of the box being the game system rules and the sand being what you could possibly do with those rules.

Quote from: jeff37923;337928See, I have thought more along the lines of the box being the game system rules and the sand being what you could possibly do with those rules.

No, I'm sorry, the correct answer is: "The 'terrain' you make with the sand is the on-going story, and the 'borders' provided by the box would determine the limits of that particular story."

You don't win our grand prize, but you do get a year's supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco treat!

Quote from: StormBringer;337933No, I'm sorry, the correct answer is: "The 'terrain' you make with the sand is the on-going story, and the 'borders' provided by the box would determine the limits of that particular story."

Therein lies the rub...

The limits of a RPG is the rules system being used and the imagination of the GM. You can make a smaller box than the one defined by those aspects, like a single continent or subsector, but that smaller box is still inside the larger one.

Quote from: StormBringer;337933You don't win our grand prize, but you do get a year's supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco treat!

Chicken or Beef flavor?

Quote from: jeff37923;337942Therein lies the rub...

The limits of a RPG is the rules system being used and the imagination of the GM. You can make a smaller box than the one defined by those aspects, like a single continent or subsector, but that smaller box is still inside the larger one.

Oh, certainly.  That is why I made the distinction that the box encompasses the current story-line.  Local story, small box; epic story, huge box.  Local story in an epic story arc?  As you mention, small box inside a large box.

I would think the sand would also include the rules, as those have a part in how the story unfolds.  You can't take a pile of loose sand and make a pillar three feet high and a quarter inch around.

                         To clarify, however, I am not really arguing against your definitions. I can see where you are coming from; it's certainly a valid interpretation of the 'box'. Going outside of that, beyond the rules, requires the GM to have a good set of skills in adjudicating unusual circumstances.

Of course, that is the same set of skills required for sandbox play anyway.  

QuoteChicken or Beef flavor?

Keep fucking that chicken flavor, and hand jerked beef flavor.

Quote from: jeff37923;337942Therein lies the rub...

The limits of a RPG is the rules system being used and the imagination of the GM. You can make a smaller box than the one defined by those aspects, like a single continent or subsector, but that smaller box is still inside the larger one.

To clarify, however, I am not really arguing against your definitions.  I can see where you are coming from; it's certainly a valid interpretation of the 'box'.  Going outside of that, beyond the rules, requires the GM to have a good set of skills in adjudicating unusual circumstances.

Of course, that is the same set of skills required for sandbox play anyway.  

Answer may depend on what you take to be the literal basis of the metaphor in the first place.

(A)



(B) (Settembrini once supplied a much nicer picture, with an actually enboxed sand table. If he shows up here I hope he still may.)



(C) World's Largest Dungeon in play

The term Sandbox was taken from computer gaming (not just Computer RPGs) and used to describe campaigns that featured players wandering around driven by goals they set. With the GM acting as a simulator of the setting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game#Sandbox_mode

Certain settings, notably Judges Guild's Wilderlands of High Fantasy were noted for their support of this type of play because of their format. The format being a variety of locales keyed to a numbered hex grid. Alternatives exist like the format of Keep on the Borderland or Mystara.

There no clear definite boundary between a Sandbox campaign and other type of campaigns because the classic examples of a sandbox campaign are a subset of non-linear gaming. Non-linear gaming means that in a setting there are more than one way of accomplishing a goal or overcoming a challenge.

One does not need a Wilderlands or Mystara to have non-linear play as part of a campaign. It just those type of settings makes it easier for the GM to manage these campaigns.

Many players like this style because it makes their choices mean more. Many GMs like it because the direction of their game can go off in unexpected directions.

Like any other type of campaign there are certain tricks and techniques one can use to make things easier. For example by having rich character backgrounds and players willing to roleplay one can cut down the preparation time down considerably. The character's background will suggest what you will need to prepare.

For example being a member of the mage's guild as opposed to a being a mage attached to the royal court. Both players can choose wherever they wish to go but if they are roleplaying then their choices will be shaped by the background they have written up. In the former example the Royal Court is a peripheral organization that can be summarized in one paragraph. In the latter the mage's guild is the peripheral organization.

A sandbox becomes easier to manage as the campaign progresses. At the beginning there is a wealth of choices for the players to decided. Later the players past decisions have pushed the character down certain  paths. The consequences or future of these path can often be easily predicted by the GM and prepared for.