From the big purple:

Quote from: EsperDerekIn one of my classes, which was a class all about running a radio station, our professor, a 30 year veteran in the industry, noted that a great deal of radio stations often went under after a radical change. This large change generally happens after a radio starts to go static in terms of audience, or their audience starts to be an audience they don't want. (IE, they're aiming for that lucrative 18-49 set, and they end up hitting either younger or older.)

But the change often alienates the old guard, which means they often lose those listeners, and they are not necessarily guaranteed of gaining enough new audience to make up the damages. So, they often end up worse than they were before.

However, of course, he also noted that sometimes change can be the opposite, attract new and keep the old, and that sometimes it's necessary because of changing economic, business, or audience factors. But even a largely successful change, one that nets a higher rating or at least sustains your faltering ratings, will alienate people. Other, generally smaller radio stations often cleverly pick up these alienated people to bolster their own ratings, by offering the same thing as the old station used to-the same songs, often in the same rotation.

This is basically what's happened here. 4th edition is such a major change from previous editions-and even the more relatively minor changes and version advancements caused people dislike the new edition, let alone a major change. Some of Wizards missteps in the marketing initially didn't help. Now, this change has largely been successful (despite what some people claim), with a product that's largely high quality and popular (It's hit some newspapers like the Wall Street Journals best sellers lists every once in awhile.)

However, this transitition, because it's such a major one, has left a few unsatisfied audience members. Their 'voice' has increased because the internet is such a sounding board, that smaller audiences can seem larger than they are.

But either way, enter Paizo. Paizo was actually in a very good position to take advantage, considering Wizards and Paizo's closer relationship during the 3.x days. Paizo-wisely-often made themselves look like the victim in Wizards 'treatment' of them, and pretty much subtly and overtly encouraged the so-called 'Edition Wars' that have been going on.

They also fostered good will by the Alpha-Beta routine, so it felt like players could make a change, even if any legitimate changes were drowned out by the 'echo chamber' effect of the people who wanted to keep the system largely where it was. Then, they produce a-admittedly high production quality-game that is largely copy-and-pasted SRD, with minor changes that in many ways serve to increase the factors that many people didn't like about 3.x, but what many people in the audience they were aiming for DID-ie 'Non-caster vs Caster'.

So, basically, they had an automatic audience for a product that required very, very little work-much less work than 4e did, for instance. As well, it also allows them to keep up their other products. It's actually pretty smart for Paizo-even though it likely won't gather too many new players, and no where near the market coverage that Dungeons and Dragons has, they have a small, rather rabid audience for their product. And that's often enough to keep a company-whether it be a radio station or an RPG company-solvent.

I thought it was an interesting theory to share on the boards here.

It sounds reasonable to me, except I'm much less inclined to believe Paizo purposely played the victim. I don't think they had to. What actually happened was kinda crappy, even without embellishment.

He's spot-on that WotC stuck its foot in its mouth, or simply tripped over its own feet, more than once when marketing 4e.

I believe that if they'd been more transparent about what they were doing with 4e, rather than flatly denying that 4e was even in the works, things might have gone a bit better.

If they hadn't had the "might as well shake your fist at the clouds in the sky" incident, and the marketing that somehow thought it was OK to give the back of the hand to prior editions, things may well have gone better in bringing 3.x players into the 4e fold.

It also hurt that there was the "who uses this shit anyway?" attitude concerning non-combat skills and the like that further antagonized 3e fans.

The hemming and hawing over the GSL was majorly stupid, with it first costing thousands, then costing nothing, then with WotC playing "snatch the pebble, Grasshopper" with it until companies like Necromancer threw up their hands in frustration. Thus, there are glaring holes in the 3rd party support world, with Green Ronin and Necromancer particularly conspicuous by their absences.

The DDI stumbled, and wasn't really ready on time.

And, to me, one of the biggest disappointments, was WotC pulling all of its TSR back catalog from availability as pdfs, and not giving clear indication of if those pdfs would be available again, let alone when.

They've had some bright spots. Scott Rouse seemed to be everywhere for a while as a goodwill ambassador. They've had some amusing animated promos; the gnome vs. tiefling thing is still kinda cute, with the gnome's "I'm a monster - RAWR!" quip standing out. The Penny Arcade/PvP/Wil Wheaton podcasts stand out, too, with some truly gratifying listening in on a session of a game that sounds like D&D sessions I've been in over the course of three decades. They've put out some good books, and the game actually is fun to play. The online stuff that is up and running is outstanding and very useful. But, damn, sometimes it seems 4e is doing well in spite of its parent company's actions.

These days most radio stations aren't even worth listening to anymore.  Mostly boring music and boring loudmouths.

Something really wrong is going on, when even the "loudmouth" hosts are really boring and cliched these days.

I could've done without the obvious bias and snide condescension, but other wise the point is solid, if largely stating the obvious.  Of course that's what Paizo is doing, what else would they do?  They weren't exactly left with much choice in the matter, they went from having a large, successful operation supporting the previous edition with direct involvement from the publisher, to completely cut off.  If it were I, I would've done the same damn thing probably, or made my own game.  I sure as hell wouldn't do anything that counted on the current edition of D&D after being left holding the bag like that.

So folks like me get, mostly, something more resembling the 4e they would've wanted, and Paizo gets to keep going on business as usual, a move that I don't think is going to be nearly the trivial little niche the OP's quote ould obviously love to paint it as.

The hostility drips from the account, however, and I don't see why the hell a 4e fan should need to try so hard to belittle the accomplishments of Paizo in this avenue.  But I should expect as much from the RPGnet/ENworld types these days.

Paizo owes Ryan Dancey a really nice Christmas present for his utterly incredible fuckup.

Quote from: Benoist;321297I thought it was an interesting theory to share on the boards here.

Let's just change the URL to //www.theTalkaboutRPGnetSite.com

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;321316But, damn, sometimes it seems 4e is doing well in spite of its parent company's actions.

True.

Quote from: Spinachcat;321321Let's just change the URL to //www.theTalkaboutRPGnetSite.com

You know you can fuck off too, if you're not happy about this topic of discussion, right?
I mean. Nobody's forcing you to read it, as far as I know.

Quote from: J Arcane;321319I could've done without the obvious bias and snide condescension, but other wise the point is solid, if largely stating the obvious.

My thoughts exactly. I would add that, when WotC was screwing up their marketing, the Paizo boards were thriving. They were not only smart in the "leftover audience picking" thing, but also in the "see, they tell you they don't care about your opinion, we open a board to let you put your stuff into the game" thing. Another obvious point, I know, but one worth mentioning once we're talking about this.

Quote from: Spinachcat;321321Paizo owes Ryan Dancey a really nice Christmas present for his utterly incredible fuckup.

What, for the OGL?

It was a brilliant idea that really gave 3rd ed the traction it needed.  3rd ed was so customer/other company friendly it wasn't even funny.

4th ed is Games Workshopsian in its "All of you get on your knees.  ITS BUKKAKE TIME!" manner of how it treated everyone.

If they had tried it with 3rd I seriously doubt it would have worked even with D&D's generally slavishly devoted to being a brandwhore market.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;3213514th ed is Games Workshopsian in its "All of you get on your knees.  ITS BUKKAKE TIME!" manner of how it treated everyone.

You keep using that word. I  do not think it means what you think it means.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;321351What, for the OGL?

It was a brilliant idea that really gave 3rd ed the traction it needed.  3rd ed was so customer/other company friendly it wasn't even funny.

No, that was the D20 license.   That was brilliant and that should have been redone for 4e instead of the pathetic GSL.    

The OGL was fucking retarded and now they are paying for their boneheaded mistake.   Paizo are sharp guys with marketing savvy so the OGL mistake is going to bleed WotC even more.

Some of the Paizo guys used to be WOTC 3E guys. The OGL was their "insurance policy" against WOTC.

Quote from: Spinachcat;321361The OGL was fucking retarded and now they are paying for their boneheaded mistake.   Paizo are sharp guys with marketing savvy so the OGL mistake is going to bleed WotC even more.

Yeah, that retarded OGL. Wait, aren't you a C&C fan? I think the retarded lies with you.

Quote from: Spinachcat;321361No, that was the D20 license.   That was brilliant and that should have been redone for 4e instead of the pathetic GSL.    

The OGL was fucking retarded and now they are paying for their boneheaded mistake.   Paizo are sharp guys with marketing savvy so the OGL mistake is going to bleed WotC even more.

I see that sour grapes still make some of the best whine.

Quote from: jeff37923;321375I see that sour grapes still make some of the best whine.

It's times like this that I think poster XP functions are a good idea.
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Quote from: Spinachcat;321321Paizo owes Ryan Dancey a really nice Christmas present for his utterly incredible fuckup.

Hey look, he got it early.




Personally I think Dancey could spend the rest of his life pulling a Jack Chick on the industry and he would still have earned a permanent reservation in Game Industry Valhalla for his work on the OGL.  But then I'm not full of sour grapes.