I love Cyberpunk 2020, but the game has a lot of flaws. The most obvious in my opinion is the very restrictive roles - the idea that only solos can get combat sense, only techies can jury rig and only fixers can do 'street deals' just doesn't square with reality.

So I'm thinking that next time I play it I might just either:

1) Do away with roles and allow people to purchase whatever skills they like.
2) Keep roles but allow people to take the special skills of other roles if they want, at maybe 1.5x the cost. So for example a cop could take combat sense, or a rockerboy could take jury rig, on a 1.5/1 point basis.

Any thoughts? Do either of these sound game-break-y?

Go with double cost of secondary roles. Works better that way. (Yes, I did the same thing for a while.)

The roles, however, have a place in making the characters easier to play.

Also, interface had several secondary roles.

Thanks. The only reason I went for a 1.5/1 ratio is that double the cost seems prohibitively high; in your opinion it isn't?

I've done it both ways and it works fine. Many of the 'Role Skills' can be eliminated without unduly affecting the game  (up to and including Combat Sense...), leaving, really, only Interface that 'needs' to be there.

There were some rules for cross training roles in the Interface magazines but they were extremely limited and less useful than either idea already presented... as I recall.

If I recall, the only purpose served by the roles in Cyberpunk was genre emulation, which is why they had goofy pseudo-classes like 'Media' and 'Rocker'.  Mixed parties were a very bad idea.  The gulf between the design of the combat and non-combat roles was virtually insurmountable.  A couple of solos escorting a tech into a location usually went ok, but it would often work better if the party was split.  The solos gather information or lead an assault, while the techies and the others worked in the background putting the pieces together or supplying intel for the assault team.

If you are looking for a more evenly matched mixed party, you almost have to get rid of the roles altogether and let anyone take whatever skill they want.  On the other hand, the system is pretty flexible, so making up your own roles wasn't terribly difficult.  Make up a skill that defines what the role is about, figure out the career skills, and that is about the extent of it.  There is a sidebar on pg 44 with the details, so adding more roles isn't particularly tricky.  The lists of skills provided is solid, but not exceptionally comprehensive.  That could easily be added onto using any local college class catalog.

Quote from: noisms;317580Thanks. The only reason I went for a 1.5/1 ratio is that double the cost seems prohibitively high; in your opinion it isn't?

No, double isn't, too high, and 1.5x has the fraction problem, as well.

Quote from: Spike;317583I've done it both ways and it works fine. Many of the 'Role Skills' can be eliminated without unduly affecting the game  (up to and including Combat Sense...), leaving, really, only Interface that 'needs' to be there.

There were some rules for cross training roles in the Interface magazines but they were extremely limited and less useful than either idea already presented... as I recall.

I don't think you even need Interface. I never have Netrunners in my CP 2020 games except as NPCs - that part of the game was a giant mess.

Quote from: StormBringer;317614If I recall, the only purpose served by the roles in Cyberpunk was genre emulation, which is why they had goofy pseudo-classes like 'Media' and 'Rocker'.  Mixed parties were a very bad idea.  The gulf between the design of the combat and non-combat roles was virtually insurmountable.  A couple of solos escorting a tech into a location usually went ok, but it would often work better if the party was split.  The solos gather information or lead an assault, while the techies and the others worked in the background putting the pieces together or supplying intel for the assault team.

Yep, mixed groups were always hard to pull off. You could have a lot of fun with the all cop game, the all media game, the all corporate game or the all rocker game. But there was no way on earth you could possibly explain a cop/media/corporate/rocker game!

QuoteIf you are looking for a more evenly matched mixed party, you almost have to get rid of the roles altogether and let anyone take whatever skill they want.  On the other hand, the system is pretty flexible, so making up your own roles wasn't terribly difficult.  Make up a skill that defines what the role is about, figure out the career skills, and that is about the extent of it.  There is a sidebar on pg 44 with the details, so adding more roles isn't particularly tricky.  The lists of skills provided is solid, but not exceptionally comprehensive.  That could easily be added onto using any local college class catalog.

Sounds a bit too much like work to me.

I don't agree. IMO, the Roles are what makes the CP2020 style come out. Each of the Role Skills has a skill that other roles use in place of it. It's just that each Role has the one thing that they are good at, i.e. For non-Fixers making a Street Deal you use Streetwise, for non-Solos instead of Combat Sense you use Awareness/Notice. One clue is that the Roles don't have the "non-Role" skill listed, like Fixers don't have Streetwise, because they don't need it. The Roles have their "Role Skills" because that is their area that they specialize in. This is one of the things that other cyber genre games that looses it with me personally and one of the things I really LIKE about CP2020.

Quote from: greylond;317776I don't agree. IMO, the Roles are what makes the CP2020 style come out. Each of the Role Skills has a skill that other roles use in place of it. It's just that each Role has the one thing that they are good at, i.e. For non-Fixers making a Street Deal you use Streetwise, for non-Solos instead of Combat Sense you use Awareness/Notice. One clue is that the Roles don't have the "non-Role" skill listed, like Fixers don't have Streetwise, because they don't need it. The Roles have their "Role Skills" because that is their area that they specialize in. This is one of the things that other cyber genre games that looses it with me personally and one of the things I really LIKE about CP2020.

I can see the point you're making, but I respectfully disagree. The Street Deal/Streetwise thing is one issue, but what about role skills like Interface or Jury Rig? You're telling me that nobody can learn how to operate a 'deck or rig something up, no matter how hard they practice, unless they happen to call themselves a "Netrunner" or a "Techie"?

Combat Sense makes the least sense to me, because it's a skill that a lot of the other roles could use. Why does a rookie Solo gain this huge advantage to initiative just because he's a "Solo", whereas a Cop who's been in dozens of gunfights and who practically sleeps with a gun in his hand will always be slower on the draw and worse at reading combat than even the most pathetic of Solos?

Quote from: greylond;317776I don't agree. IMO, the Roles are what makes the CP2020 style come out. Each of the Role Skills has a skill that other roles use in place of it. It's just that each Role has the one thing that they are good at, i.e. For non-Fixers making a Street Deal you use Streetwise, for non-Solos instead of Combat Sense you use Awareness/Notice. One clue is that the Roles don't have the "non-Role" skill listed, like Fixers don't have Streetwise, because they don't need it. The Roles have their "Role Skills" because that is their area that they specialize in. This is one of the things that other cyber genre games that looses it with me personally and one of the things I really LIKE about CP2020.

Actually, I think you have that backwards: The presence of more conventional skills that accomplish essentially the same task as the Role Specific skills demonstrates exactly why the Roles are vestigial remanents of design, owing more to D&D style classes with less supporting structure.

In fact, the Role Skills are generally less useful than their 'normal counterparts', though they do, apparently, stack.  

Combat sense only 'replaces' awareness regarding actual combat, for any other use (say... spotting a pickpocket lifting the Mcguffin before you deliver it to the mob boss or whatever...) it is useless.  Authority does not fill in for most of the social skills except during the most limited of circumstances... and streetdeal and streetwise are so similar as to be essentially interchangable except for MAYBE one line in the book that suggests that you should get a lower DC with Streetdeal...

Its a vestige, easily exorcised without any harm to the game itself except in the minds of people who prefer the rigid caste structure in their games.

If you want to make a 'fixer' without Roles, make a character with lots of points of Streetwise. It is literally that simple in most cases.  Mind you, you'll miss out on the fancy rules for 'pools' of street resources from Interface, but that's a non-issue for 99.9% of players.

My recolletion is that role skills stack, and that that means, cheaper raising b rasiing both the role and the normal skill. Plus CP 2013 had specific corespondences that bordered on supernatural for high levels of the role skills. Like Charismatic Leadership +8 being able to raise riots on the impromptu...

Quote from: aramis;317919My recolletion is that role skills stack, and that that means, cheaper raising b rasiing both the role and the normal skill. Plus CP 2013 had specific corespondences that bordered on supernatural for high levels of the role skills. Like Charismatic Leadership +8 being able to raise riots on the impromptu...

Role skills really stack? Where does it say that? Not being facetious; I'm interested to know.

No, the Role Skills and Normal Skills don't stack. Also, a person with a Role Skill doesn't need the "Normal" skill because all the Role Skills are better(more intensive training/talent) that the Normal Skill. All of the Role Skills have a Normal Skill alternate. So, for instance a regular person CAN Navigate/Use the Interface but a Netrunner is going to beat them handsdown just about every time because they are the Experts.

Quote from: greylond;317946No, the Role Skills and Normal Skills don't stack. Also, a person with a Role Skill doesn't need the "Normal" skill because all the Role Skills are better(more intensive training/talent) that the Normal Skill. .

Again, not entirely.  Re-read, for example Combat Sense.  Now, in the hands of a lazy GM, certainly Combat Sense could replace Awareness in all circumstances, but the intent was that it was only useful for combat related Awareness checks.

Authority is limited in less clear ways.

Family has no analog skill at all, neither does Jury Rig (which isn't useful for repairs, unlike the mechanical skills)... and I recall the medic requires more than his core skill as well.

Quote from: Spike;318047Again, not entirely.  Re-read, for example Combat Sense.  Now, in the hands of a lazy GM, certainly Combat Sense could replace Awareness in all circumstances, but the intent was that it was only useful for combat related Awareness checks.

Authority is limited in less clear ways.

Family has no analog skill at all, neither does Jury Rig (which isn't useful for repairs, unlike the mechanical skills)... and I recall the medic requires more than his core skill as well.

Yep. Resources also has no analogue.