Quote from: Caesar Slaad;309727I'm not one of the big bitcher, but I did figuratively roll my eyes.

Yeah I probably overstated my case; it's just that I spend some time on the TML which is almost entirely populated by people who don't play arguing canon minutae. Clearly for some people that IS the role-playing game.

Quote from: The Shaman;310030I see.

I approach it differently: anything from the Interstellar Wars to post-Virus Charted Space is still canon, and you're no more obligated to play in 1248 than you would be obligated to play in Rome AD 2009 as opposed to Rome AD 29.

YMMV, et cetera ad nauseum.

Nevertheless, do you or do you not recognize that Imperium fanboys went APESHIT over how TNE had "ruined" the setting, and for a great deal of them it SIMPLY NEVER HAPPENED? Ie. they refuse to even acknowledge it as canon, choosing to effectively IGNORE CANON at their whim?

In other words, they not only allowed, but FORCED a massive change (rollback, to be fair) in the setting Canon because they didn't like it?
And yet, in general, these are the same anal little fucking obsessives who are going apeshit now because the lasers are touching where they're not supposed to?

RPGPundit

There's no such thing as canon, only individual GMs' imagination.

So I say to you all what I said to my former players - my World of Darkness has Kender.

Quote from: Age of Fable;310144There's no such thing as canon, only individual GMs' imagination.

So I say to you all what I said to my former players - my World of Darkness has Kender.

Repeating that mantra won't make it true.

Quote from: RPGPundit;310143Nevertheless, do you or do you not recognize that Imperium fanboys went APESHIT over how TNE had "ruined" the setting, and for a great deal of them it SIMPLY NEVER HAPPENED? Ie. they refuse to even acknowledge it as canon, choosing to effectively IGNORE CANON at their whim?

If you mean they continued on with the Rebellion-era games they were already running, then as I noted upthread, they were still using the canon as their starting point.

Maybe I'm not understanding your point here: it sounds like you're saying that the only way to play Traveller per the OTU is to set it in the New Era. Is that what you're arguing?

Or to use a different example, is playing a game set in the pre-Time of Troubles Realms IGNORING CANON as well?

Quote from: RPGPunditIn other words, they not only allowed, but FORCED a massive change (rollback, to be fair) in the setting Canon because they didn't like it?

"FORCED" who to rollback what, exactly? GDW didn't suddenly throw their hands in the air and say, "Okay, just kidding - here's some more Golden Age stuff for you to use."

Quote from: RPGPundit;310143Nevertheless, do you or do you not recognize that Imperium fanboys went APESHIT over how TNE had "ruined" the setting, and for a great deal of them it SIMPLY NEVER HAPPENED? Ie. they refuse to even acknowledge it as canon, choosing to effectively IGNORE CANON.......

RPGPundit

I consider a mellower, modified version of that - to me everything the day before Emperor Strephon's assassination and onwards never happened. Thats about the point where I think GDW's quality control went downhill.

In my way of looking at things , the TRAVELLER universe is 80% of classic TRAV - thats the mostky LBB size book era and ALL of GURPS TRAVELLER is canon with me.


- Ed C.

Quote from: aramis;310155Repeating that mantra won't make it true.

Quite.

There is canon, it's a potentially useful tool.  Some people find canon inspiring, some find it restricting, most I suspect don't much care as long as it's broadly in line.

But it does exist.  At the boundaries it may get fuzzy, but that's true of most concepts so that's hardly surprising.

Balbimus, Aramis and other believers in canon: have you soon the convolutions of fundamentalist bible scholars trying to reconcile the ramblings of semi-literate holy men separated by centuries, and by language and culture? It's a joke. But that's where the term canon comes from, and in terms of games, I can only see it as ironical.

Others may enjoy the game of trying to reconcile what  game designer A wrote at 3am in 1983 trying to meet his deadline while hopped up on mountain dew, with what game designer B wrote in 1997 after his hard drive crashed. They are welcome, while I continue to play the game.

The only issue here is making it clear to players what has changed in your campaign from what they are working from, especially when they have purchased a book. This is courtesy.

You know what - fuck Mark Millar.  Fuck him and the horse he rode in on.  Fuck Mark Millar in the fucking ass with a concrete dildo!

That fuckhead gave up the right to be the exclusive author of "canon" way the fuck back when.  

So yeah, not everything Millar decides is canon is canon.  Every fucking published set of rules and every fucking published supplement ever made for Traveller is canon.  Anyone who argues differently is just being dumb.

Quote from: The Shaman;310171If you mean they continued on with the Rebellion-era games they were already running, then as I noted upthread, they were still using the canon as their starting point.

Maybe I'm not understanding your point here: it sounds like you're saying that the only way to play Traveller per the OTU is to set it in the New Era. Is that what you're arguing?

No, I'm arguing that there are a ton of Traveller Fanboys who steadfastly despised TNE to the point of refusing to accept it as Canon, considering it an atrocity. Many of these are the same people who are demanding that "canon" be followed now.
This means the issue isn't really about canon as much as it is about the anal issues these people have about how they want the Traveller universe to be; they're trying to make an appeal to authority, but what they really want is for only stuff they like to be included.

QuoteOr to use a different example, is playing a game set in the pre-Time of Troubles Realms IGNORING CANON as well?

That's beside my point. However, you bring up an interesting scenario. What's going on here is like if the FR fanboys were now to protest about some particular thing an FR writer were to present because it was against "canon", when these same fanboys shat all over 4e FR.

I'm not saying 4e FR was good, or TNE was good either; I'm saying that these guys (the fanboys, of one game or the other) would be hypocrites to now try to appeal to "Canon".

Quote"FORCED" who to rollback what, exactly? GDW didn't suddenly throw their hands in the air and say, "Okay, just kidding - here's some more Golden Age stuff for you to use."

No, they just went out of business.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;310258No, I'm arguing that there are a ton of Traveller Fanboys who steadfastly despised TNE to the point of refusing to accept it as Canon, considering it an atrocity. Many of these are the same people who are demanding that "canon" be followed now.
This means the issue isn't really about canon as much as it is about the anal issues these people have about how they want the Traveller universe to be; they're trying to make an appeal to authority, but what they really want is for only stuff they like to be included.

Okay.

I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but can you link an example of someone saying this?

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's beside my point. However, you bring up an interesting scenario. What's going on here is like if the FR fanboys were now to protest about some particular thing an FR writer were to present because it was against "canon", when these same fanboys shat all over 4e FR.

Okay.

Quote from: RPGPunditI'm not saying 4e FR was good, or TNE was good either; I'm saying that these guys (the fanboys, of one game or the other) would be hypocrites to now try to appeal to "Canon".

Okay.

Quote from: RPGPunditNo, they just went out of business.

That they did.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify your posts for me. Most appreciated.

GDW closed down while in the black. Marc Miller has said what is and is not canon, and the term canon literally means a list of what is approved. Frank Chadwick essentially retired. LKW went to work for SJG. Marc Miller immediately started doing what he had been forbidden to do under GDW: write for Traveller.

In Traveller terms, unless you're writing for Traveller, Traveller canon can be safely ignored by GM's who chose to. But that does not change the fact that Marc Miller, as the owner of the intellectual property, has chosen to say that not everything published is canon (to wit, the timeline of GT, certain rules in GTIW, the novels), nor that a large group of fans like to know what is approved by MWM.

New Rule (Fan Service): If you argue vehemently over the tiniest change in the Traveller universe because it goes against "Marc Miller's Grand Vision", you must go ahead and offer to blow him.

You say that like you think the fanboys don't want to do that, mate.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;310303You say that like you think the fanboys don't want to do that, mate.

I distinctly remember one Traveller canon griefer who wouldn't. Then again, this same guy once spent 4 pages of a thread insulting MWM, then was bitching because MWM didn't want to talk to him.