Joseph Goodman's analysis of the state of 4e

ancientgamer · June 23, 2009, 11:11:18 AM

I'm sorry but I would need to see where he got all of this data. I mean he uses his own sales and his own special blend of herbs and spices to say that it is doing well. I am not refuting his statements to say 4E is not doing well but if I can't use/see the same data he has, then I can't confirm or deny what he saying. If I can't do that, then by default, I don't buy it.

Benoist · June 23, 2009, 11:33:57 AM

Quote from: jrients;309555How did Mr. Goodman decide that 35 years is roughly two generations? Two generations of what? And the assertion "D&D has roughly one peak every generation" seems like an awful big conclusion to draw from the available data pool of only 2 generations, whatever his definition of a generation is.

I don't doubt that Mr. Goodman has done his research or that he knows a helluva lot more about the game business than I do. But his argument as presented looks a little like he's offering a special pleading on behalf of 4e. Maybe if he had offered this argument well in advance of 4e apparently not selling as well as 3e it would look more credible. I dunno.

Bingo.

Joe's a really nice guy. I have nothing against him. But here, he's obviously biased, and feels like he needs to play cheerleader after Clark Peterson basically said he was giving up on print 4e products because distributors didn't want them. That's an action-reaction thing.

As to the arguments themselves, I find them shaky at best. The "look at me, I'm a guy who gets the business" is all fine and good, but it isn't a pass to say whatever the fuck you want. The rest is just a sum of assumptions and semi-apologetic statements destined to basically tell us "4e doesn't sell that well, but it's still kinda successful". Right.

Benoist · June 23, 2009, 11:52:03 AM

Quote from: jrients;309752PirateCat seemed to be having trouble keeping his shit together. Was it me, or did he close more than one thread with complaints about having to babysit?

It's not you. He did close a bunch of threads where incidentally Morrus himself was trolling against ENW's code of conduct. But that's okay, see, because he knows the motives of posters without them saying so. Eric Noah gave him the ultimate admin psychic ability to read posters' minds before they touch their keyboards!

You can have a look at the Meta forum, threds "return of the edition wars" and "less people posting" to see the fallout of this whole thing.

When you consider that in the former thread they are actually considering individual subject bans and taking lessons from RPGnet's moderation... that's eye-poppingly sad, if you were a regular of ENW a few years ago as I was.

RPGPundit · June 23, 2009, 02:00:17 PM

TheRPGsite is the only full-blown site where we do not moderate RPG speech.

RPGPundit

Settembrini · June 23, 2009, 02:06:31 PM

I beg to differ! theRPGsite has now a history of bannings, resulting from pissing matches with the mods.

Benoist · June 23, 2009, 02:08:18 PM

All message boards get some bans under the belt, sooner or later.
Wouldn't you ban a guy posting porn on every single thread on your Prussian message boards? Hm?
Well then, here you go. Bans happen.

Seanchai · June 23, 2009, 02:21:37 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;309963TheRPGsite is the only full-blown site where we do not moderate RPG speech.

And would never ban anyone for anything they say...

Seanchai

StormBringer · June 23, 2009, 02:43:35 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;309963TheRPGsite is the only full-blown site where we do not moderate RPG speech.

RPGPundit

Come on, you know Sett is just waiting to deliver another screed on free speech.

Settembrini · June 23, 2009, 03:15:13 PM

Quote from: Benoist;309967All message boards get some bans under the belt, sooner or later.
Wouldn't you ban a guy posting porn on every single thread on your Prussian message boards? Hm?
Well then, here you go. Bans happen.

I don´t think you need a ban to do this. If it´s illegal it´s illegal and will be acted legally against. Free Speech is a continuum, and I´m the first who acknowledges theRPGsite is more free than most other venues. I just like the line to be drawn a bit further. But enough on that, I don´t want to turn this thread into one about my pet peeve. ENworlds moderation definitely has taken a turn for the worse, that we can all agree on.

S'mon · June 23, 2009, 03:19:33 PM

Quote from: Settembrini;309989ENworlds moderation definitely has taken a turn for the worse, that we can all agree on.

I just wish I'd had some inkling of that before I got banned. :\

Benoist · June 23, 2009, 03:21:14 PM

Quote from: S'mon;309995I just wish I'd had some inkling of that before I got banned. :\

You got permabanned?! How? :hmm:

S'mon · June 23, 2009, 03:31:57 PM

Quote from: Benoist;309996You got permabanned?! How? :hmm:

No, they call it a ban "You have been banned" it says, but actually a 3-day suspension.

thedungeondelver · June 23, 2009, 03:42:23 PM

Goodman's a blowhard. The people to ask about TSR financials are:

Frank Mentzer, Ryan Dancey, and Paul J. Stormberg.

I'd trust their opinions long before I...well let's just say if Joe told me the sun was shining I'd pack an umbrella just in case.

aramis · June 23, 2009, 05:02:37 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver;310003Goodman's a blowhard. The people to ask about TSR financials are:

Frank Mentzer, Ryan Dancey, and Paul J. Stormberg.

I'd trust their opinions long before I...well let's just say if Joe told me the sun was shining I'd pack an umbrella just in case.

And what are Frank Mentzer, Ryan Dancer, and Paul Stormberg saying?

thedungeondelver · June 23, 2009, 06:11:22 PM

Quote from: aramis;310025And what are Frank Mentzer, Ryan Dancer, and Paul Stormberg saying?

I should amend that post; Frank and Ryan both have interesting things to say on TSR financials. Paul's thing is TSR history in the general, so I'd leave him out of the equation.

vis-a-vis your original question, at the risk of sounding snarky (and I'm not trying to do that) "Ask them."

Ryan is "around" (I'm not a fan of his works or anything so I haven't kept up with him; I'm sure he has a "blog", all the Important Folks(TM) do these days, yeah?); Frank you can catch in his own Q&A forum at Dragonsfoot.

Ask and he'll spill.