Dungeons are, of course, just about the least historically sensible thing in all of D&D's setting-assumptions.  There were never vast dungeons beneath wizard's towers in the real world, much less in just random places in the  middle of the wilderness.
There were "dungeons" beneath some castles and such, but they were basically prisons, and nothing like the dungeon complexes of Gygaxian invention.

Does anyone here know anything about how the IDEA of playing in a dungeon came into being, and why? Geezer?

And when you run fantasy games, do you care that your dungeons have some sense or purpose; do you try to make them seem "realistic" or at least "logical"? ie. choose ruined castles, or catacombs or mines in place of the "bunch of rooms and corridors and stairs and other weird things underground"? Or do you just go whole-hog for the latter?

RPGPundit

Lord of the Rings Moria.  What spawned that I have no idea.  Egyptian pyramids maybe and Pompeii.

I base my ruins on abandoned castles, sunken cities and catacombs.  Drawing real life inspiration from the Catacombs below paris the built over cities in Scotland and crazy ass Castles like Chillingham.

I don't really care for dungeon crawls, I'm not sure I've run one, however in the scheme of things the idea of trying to make it sensible or realistic sort of defeats the whole purpose of it; which is basically to pack a lot of game content into a small, controlled environment for a tactical, attritional challenge.

From the originator himself

QuoteRole playing came into it's own for me when I thought about using the
Medieval skirmish rules called CHAINMAIL along with the individual goal
concept explored in the Braunstiens.

Having a weekend off from refereeing our group's Napolenic campaign (A
wargame with national goals set by the players) I spent the time reading
CONAN novels and watching old monster movies while munching on popcorn.

Set in a town called BLACKMOOR. Actually mostly the graph paper dungeon under the castle and town. The previous games had all been 'on the board' but it's hard to hide things there. A totally unseen dungeon maze added additional
territory and to hide several nasty beasts therein.

http://jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/ArchiveOld/rpg2.html

The dungeon was chosen because of Fog of War issues.  Labyrinth of the Minotaur and Moria probably contributed as seeds but it looks like the main reason was just pure practicality.

You have to remember these guys were heavy Minature Wargamers. If you look in First Fantasy Campaign there are several references to town layouts that were real setups on sand and boards. So it is natural that in order to create some unknowns that a dungeon would be used in place of the sand table. I believe the use of graph paper came through mapping siege tunnels when they played. Dave combined all these elements into the first Blackmoor game.

Once the first level was in place than going deeper was the next logical step. First there was 6 levels (1d6) then more added later. When the character got to higher levels they started adventuring outside. Finally when they wanted to establish their own realms Dave used the Outdoor Survival Map.

Naturally as the "Blackmoor" game spread in the region that people adopted the multi-level dungeon and other conventions of Dave's Group. And when TSR published D&D and it was bought by other groups that had none of the assumptions of the Lake Geneva/Minnesota people RPGs started diversifying into what we see now.

Quote from: RPGPundit;309781And when you run fantasy games, do you care that your dungeons have some sense or purpose; do you try to make them seem "realistic" or at least "logical"? ie. choose ruined castles, or catacombs or mines in place of the "bunch of rooms and corridors and stairs and other weird things underground"? Or do you just go whole-hog for the latter?

For a long time I was hung up on making my fantasy "realistic".  The dungeon (whatever it was, castle, mine, creature's lair) had to have a realistic purpose (or have had one at one time), and I still try to keep that in mind.  However, after reading Philotomy's OD&D Musings about the dungeon as a mythic underworld with its own reality and separate laws, I have been more inclined to throw in some of the gonzo.

I'm definitely with Philotomy - OD&D called it The Underworld, and that's what it is - the mythic Underworld of Joseph Campbell's Hero With A Thousand Faces (the PC).  The Realm of Chaos beyond The Threshold.

Quote from: RPGPundit;309781Dungeons are, of course, just about the least historically sensible thing in all of D&D's setting-assumptions.  There were never vast dungeons beneath wizard's towers in the real world, much less in just random places in the  middle of the wilderness.
RPGPundit

There were wizards in the real world?
;)

On a more serious note, I like it if the DM throws some bones towards "believeablily" but I don't require the whole thing to be utterly, grittily REAL.  Throwing in a kobold midden pit is great.  ONCE.  Having us discover countless 5x5 rooms with a small hole cut into a bench, the kobold "shower room" and packing the thing with enough barrels of dry rations, water jugs and nails to sustain a community of 1000 kobolds indefinately is taking things a bit too far.

Dungeons are their own thing.  When designing/running them, I just assume things like bathrooms and the like are THERE, but I don't have to describe every one, or force the PCs to map out the location of every closet they shove their greasy rags into.

Realism in fantasy is cool, but it should still be FANTASY.  In D&D, I want ancient ruins to troll, orcs to slay, damsels to resuce, treasure to find, MacGuffins to MacGuff and dragons and glowing swords and fireballs.

Another literary antecedent to D&D's dungeons is Conan. "The Scarlet Citadel" and "Xuthal of the Dusk" are both fairly dungeon-like. "Tower of the Elephant", sort of.

Vance's The Dying Earth also has a bit of a dungeon in "Guyal of Sfere".

And the Lankhmar stories include "Quarmall", also somewhat dungeon-like. You could also add much of Swords of Lankhmar.

Elliot - I like your bunny.

Quote from: Technomancer;309796... Philotomy's OD&D Musings about the dungeon as a mythic underworld with its own reality and separate laws ....

That musing is brilliant.  It changed the way that I think of dungeons as well.  :wizard:

Nope,
Love the mythic underworld idea, but 99% of the time, a trip underground is created as logically as possible.  This includes a certain amount of boring rooms, I'll admit.  But PCs can use logic a little more easily.

This is for a modern setting but it is still relevant to the topic.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=391379

Gygax cites Margaret St. Clair's "Sign of the Labrys" in Appendix N of the 1e DMG. It's a post-apocalyptic story, and the bulk of the action takes place in a multilevel, sprawling, underground science & technology complex that has been partially abandoned, partially ruined and looted, and is still partially inhabited. A lot of classic D&D dungeon tropes seem to have come from here, including a bewildering array of fungi, wandering monsters, and bizarre traps seemingly placed at random.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;309809There were wizards in the real world?
;)

Yes. But none of them seem to have made it to 1st level....