I played my first session of 4e on Friday night at AKon. It was an RPGA game, since the guy who runs RPGA in the Dallas area is a friend from way back, so he got me into a 1st-level session that he was running. Having followed the latest 4e thread regarding the RPGA-ization of D&D, bear in mind that I haven't played in their events before either, so I was a total newb to both. Based on that, here are my impressions - they're wholly intertwined, so some of them may be more an artifact of RPGA than 4e, and vice versa. I'll put the summary up to avoid the worst of "TLDR-ism" (I failed, looking back, but oh well) and then go into details if responses warrant. Some of the details are a bit blurry, but give me a break, I was up until 2:30 Saturday morning getting lap dances at a local club, and almost 2am Sunday morning with my regular gaming group.

1: Felt very much like an MMO to me. Not always a bad thing, aside from the fact that a 3.5 hour session could have been done in about 1/6 the time online with better graphics. I made World of Warcraft references more than once, to knowing nods from other players in the group who also play WoW.

2: I've played in convention games before, and know there is a time-limit, but it felt very rushed and railroaded, to the point that I could almost hear the clicking of the mouse button to get past the flavor text. I wanted to search a cart for loot as we got a ride into a town, and was ignored multiple times - no time to improvise.

3: Due to the way RPGA works, most people seem to have multiple characters of varying levels so they can play whatever modlue is up that week in their rotation, so two of the guys who were playing had done the module so many times they were drawing the encounter maps for the DM.

4: Having a Drow in a 1st-level party was "interesting", but since there was no role-playing (and I mean essentially none aside from a throwaway line here and there - the DM was reading the conversations verbatim from the module as we hurtled towards the next location), it didn't really seem to matter. No personality, no "clash of ideologies". He was essentially "the guy who can throw magical darkness once per encounter".

5: Having spells that you can essentially use endlessly ("at will powers") was actually kinda neat, and some of the racial abilities came in handy (I was a halfling warlock so, for example, if I was as close or closer to an enemy than anyone else in my party, I got a +1 to hit with ranged attacks). BUT...

6: Each encountered played out almost exactly the same way, from each player. Same powers, same tactics, since the powers never ran out - aside from my once-per-day power that I saved for the final battle, of course. Again, no need to change tactics due to diminishing resources - you could do the same thing every time. Which was fine because...

7: 2/3 of the encounters were exactly the same. "Shadow" creatures which consisted of 1 Big Guy, 4 Medium Guys, and 6-10 Small Guys (which could be killed with one HP of damage...?). And of course the Big Bad at the end - with his 4 medium guys and 10 Small Guys. They happened to be actual people, not shadows, but ya know, acted about the same. Not saying there weren't differences in powers, abilities, etc, but if there were I didn't notice them.

8: At the end, when we won (which was never in doubt - none of the encounters were - but I must admit it was helped in part thanks to a move I pulled off that the long-time RPGA-ers said they'd never seen before, even the DM), we all got the same XP (which is fine I guess - half-way to 2nd level) and a slip of paper with an item noted on it. We also got to choose from a set of 3 or 4 magic "items". I took a +1 viscious weapon - able to apply to any weapon my class could use, so none of that "Awww, I can't use that - guess I'll have to sell it!" stuff here. I'll let you decide if that's good or bad. Other chosices were +1 flaming and a bag of holding.

9: Whoever wrote the module was a dipstick. One fight in the cellar of a brewery included the admonition to be aware that using fire would be a bad idea as the beer might "explode" or catch on fire.

So, in summary - did I like it? Yeah, I think I did. Would I play it again? Probably, if just for a change of pace. Would I use it for my group? Probably not. 3.0 and 3.5 is still the king, but I'm at least willing to entertain the possibility that it might work for "regular" weekly gaming in the right hands.

Quotetwo of the guys who were playing had done the module so many times they were drawing the encounter maps for the DM.

Before I say how ridiculous this is, I'd like to point out that the fault here is with the RPGA, not the chosen edition of D&D.  Having gotten that out of the way, man, that's like ridiculous.  It's more ridiculous than something that is only a little bit ridiculous.

Yeah, that part for certain was RPGA. And very MMO - its like me having run Shadowfang Keep or VanCleef so many times with so many characters in WoW that I could do it blindfolded.

Quote from: Werekoala;3056599: Whoever wrote the module was a dipstick. One fight in the cellar of a brewery included the admonition to be aware that using fire would be a bad idea as the beer might "explode" or catch on fire.

Its like the writer has never drank a beer before...

Funny thing is, most of your complaints about the 4E RPGA game are the same complaints I had about 2E RPGA games. Sounds like nothing has really changed in how the RPGA presents adventures.

Nightmarish, I'd say.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jrients;305670Having gotten that out of the way, man, that's like ridiculous.

As ridiculous as the gamer in my first AD&D group who played through the same solo adventures several times with the same character to rack up extra money and xp between regular sessions...

(Maybe that belongs in the "what do you remember" thread?)

Quote from: RPGPundit;306047Nightmarish, I'd say.

RPGPundit

This.
The antithesis of what a role-playing game should feel like, if you ask me.

RPGA is the devil. I don't think it would matter what edition, or game for that matter, you were playing, it would be doomed by the RPGA style of play. 4e may not be the most free-spirited system out there, but there is a lot more room for diversity than what you experienced (especially as you level up and gain different powers, etc.). I hope you do give 4e another shot, hopefully with a decent DM (who isn't afraid of some creativity and diversity) and an environment where the role-playing aspect of the game is not squashed at every turn. I'm a firm believer that just because the role playing aspect of the game is not stressed in the rules, does not mean it must be absent.

Now that I have expressed a "pro-4e" opinion, I will now brace myself for the inevitable tide of "4e sucks" sentiment. Carry on...

It's good to see that the RPGA still sucks and validates why I haven't bothered participating in any RPGA games for well over a decade, hell 2 decades almost.  

Your problems are all valid and while some stem from 4e changes, most are a function of RPGA 'fairness'.

Quote from: IMLegend;309918Now that I have expressed a "pro-4e" opinion, I will now brace myself for the inevitable tide of "4e sucks" sentiment. Carry on...

Not at all! I've had far too many joy-filled sessions DMing 4E that I would ever decry the rules system per se. Like you, I'm distraught to see what becomes of 4E in an RPGA-environment. Somewhere along the way I also get riled up to see some previous RPGA-only rulings having become codifications in anyone's D&D ruleset when we hit 4E, but I've been convinced by some posters on these boards (in particular, Gabriel2 and Pseudoe.) that these aren't issues one can't effectively circumvent in one's home games. So there, enjoy 4E or whichever game currently scratches your D&D itch.

Well, I have an update - I finished reading the 4e PHB last night, and started in on the DMG. So far, the PHB does introduce some interesting concepts (I like rituals, for example) and some things that make me go "hmmm" like level-based magic items (but I do like that most items have more than one power, which kinda makes up for it), but on the whole I didn't read anything that scared me away. I described it to a friend as "D&D meets Dragonball Z", as far as power levels and such go (and you have to admit, they did crank it up to 11 in some places). But on the whole, I don't think it sucks so far.

Now, that said, I'm still in the "RPG Advice" section of the DMG, which I have to say offers some good pointers. But some of the things being said about the structuring of encounters and such has me a bit leary - but I'll hold off until I actually read those sections. For example, I don't like the heavy-handed insistence on a "balanced" group and the fact that if you don't have at least one of each "role" then encounters as "structured" will be unbalanced and harder for the group.... mmm'k.

And yes, with everything I've read so far, my negative experience seems to be 100% due to RPGA, not 4e. So that's where I am as of today, at least.

4e is great...

for RPGA games.

I played in two 4e rpga games at our local con a couple of weeks ago and much fun was had by all.  Of course having a very good DM (Jay is a very experienced rpga dm) makes a big difference, but 4e is optimized for rpga gaming.  The class balance, treasure packages, the way combat now works - all of this is geared towards making D&D fit into the rpga style of play (3 combats per session, limited roleplay, restrictions on wealth per level, etc.) better.  

4e is designed for tournament play.  It was fun for a day, but I still don't want that kind of thing for long term campaigning.

Quote from: Windjammer;309923Not at all! I've had far too many joy-filled sessions DMing 4E that I would ever decry the rules system per se. Like you, I'm distraught to see what becomes of 4E in an RPGA-environment. Somewhere along the way I also get riled up to see some previous RPGA-only rulings having become codifications in anyone's D&D ruleset when we hit 4E, but I've been convinced by some posters on these boards (in particular, Gabriel2 and Pseudoe.) that these aren't issues one can't effectively circumvent in one's home games. So there, enjoy 4E or whichever game currently scratches your D&D itch.

Many thanks. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers (this time), it just appears that the majority sentiment here is down on 4e. I can understand, 4e is what it is and is not for everyone. I'm just kind of mystified by the idea that enjoying 4e somehow precludes one from enjoying other games or editions. Guess I'm a fence straddler in the edition wars.

I ran some 2E and 3E Retail Play modules. The 3E ones lowered the bar too far, and I've not been back.

Quote from: IMLegend;309929Many thanks. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers (this time), it just appears that the majority sentiment here is down on 4e. I can understand, 4e is what it is and is not for everyone. I'm just kind of mystified by the idea that enjoying 4e somehow precludes one from enjoying other games or editions. Guess I'm a fence straddler in the edition wars.

Nothing wrong with someone who can enjoy more than one thing.
I'll be the first to weigh in with an opinion of a system or product, but I'll always be happy when someone enjoys a game.