Quote from: Demonseed;304654I've tried to years to get a really good, working system that would allow opposed attack and parry rolls.  Something along those lines would suit much better than having missed attacks cause damage.

Interesting idea...

Why not just assume every attack hits unless the target does something to not get hit.

I think it's a nice fit for games where hit points are nothing more than a countdown to when a character has a chance of getting seriously hurt.

QuoteI was playing with an idea on this the other day. A little cage fighting game that was really trying to take the idea of special combat moves and use a fatigue system to limit their use. So you have a fatigue point total and you 'spend' fatigue points to make specal attacks as well as using them to absorb/dodge your opponent's attacks.
Not perfected because in the end if you use the same pool then all you are really doing is comparing resources (I 'spend' 3 do do an extra 5 'damage' to you, in effect means I am on +2) and it needs some more subtlety. If I do it I will stick it up here some place its only a combat system so it won;t be more than 2000 words (ish)

I really like this idea.  I think if you took this "fatigue" value, and paired it with wound and a hit location/critical system as in Dark Heresy, it'd make a fun high action sort of game but still with lethal consequences.

I'd also note that it does a fantastic job of dealing with the problem of non-lethal damage.  Non-lethal/"subdual" does damage to fatigue, but never wounds.  So you can have non-lethal fights, bar brawls, etc., without having to monkey the system or fudge it or have "special damage" that works differently from the normal method.

I think it would drop in relatively easily to most systems too, as it's just an extra layer.  You'd just need costs for basic actions and such.

Quote from: Demonseed;304654I've tried to years to get a really good, working system that would allow opposed attack and parry rolls.

Try this.

Also available in softcover.

I would prefer that RPGs reward players and GMs paying attention to what's going on by fucking them hardcore in the ass without lube when caught with their pants down.

Much of what constitutes successful defense in combat stems from awareness and reactions thereto; if you get confused, dazed, stunned, pinned, etc. then landing a blow that takes you out becomes very easy to execute.  Far too few RPG rulesets make this matter sufficiently, and even less craft their machines such that skill in combat stems from inducing such conditions upon the target first before landing that blow becomes practical.  I would rather be able to inflict one-hit kills on a routine basis through the combination of superior player skill and persona manipulation than just because my numbers beat yours.

Interestingly, I can say that the Tunnels & Trolls combat system seems to fit the original poster's requirements completely.

Each side rolls their combat dice.  Compares totals.  High side inflicts the difference between the rolls on the low side.

All maneuvers are handled by complete GM Fiat, so that's not good.   However, the idea is always to pay attention to your surroundings, describe something tactical, and then the GM arbitrarily assigns an effect on the combat roll.

Having your part of a combat roll negated is disastrous.  If you're in battle against an evenly matched opponent, and the opponent does something to disarm you (weapon dice removed), you are well and truly fucked.

Combat rolls use a mishmash of modifiers dumped into a pot and stirred beyond recognition.  Strength, Dexterity, Speed, and Luck all play an equal role.  So you could have an agile, lucky fighter who had just as much basic combat ability as a huge strong guy.  The factors only matter for description as they're all homogenous combat plusses.

Quote from: Demonseed;304654So what happens to all that training time your character spent learning to dodge attacks?  If I'm a small agile guy attacking with two light blades, and I'm fighting a big, slow hulking guy with an unwieldy two-handed sword, I may indeed emerge unscathed.  I may also get splattered against a wall.  It all depends on how well I and my opponent execute our respective attacks.  

I've tried to years to get a really good, working system that would allow opposed attack and parry rolls.  Something along those lines would suit much better than having missed attacks cause damage.

Which ones do you know you're not satisfied with? Because I think there are several which do what you say.

Quote from: Gabriel2;304751Interestingly, I can say that the Tunnels & Trolls combat system seems to fit the original poster's requirements completely.

Not in the slightest. What the OP proposes is a system in which even a missed attack delivers damage. In your Tunnels & Trolls example, it would mean that even the winner of the dice contest would suffer damage.

Quote from: Claudius;304780Not in the slightest. What the OP proposes is a system in which even a missed attack delivers damage. In your Tunnels & Trolls example, it would mean that even the winner of the dice contest would suffer damage.

Spite damage

For every 6 rolled, one point of armor ignoring damage is applied.  This is regardless of who won or lost the combat roll.  So the winner suffers damage too.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;304731I would prefer that RPGs reward players and GMs paying attention to what's going on by fucking them hardcore in the ass without lube when caught with their pants down.
 
Much of what constitutes successful defense in combat stems from awareness and reactions thereto; if you get confused, dazed, stunned, pinned, etc. then landing a blow that takes you out becomes very easy to execute. Far too few RPG rulesets make this matter sufficiently, and even less craft their machines such that skill in combat stems from inducing such conditions upon the target first before landing that blow becomes practical. I would rather be able to inflict one-hit kills on a routine basis through the combination of superior player skill and persona manipulation than just because my numbers beat yours.

Which RPG rulesets do this well?

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;305257Which RPG rulesets do this well?

Well......I don't know if I'd use the term "well", but Call of Cthulhu d20 has "Massive Damage Threshold" much like D&D 3e, except that it's at ten Hit Points, rather than fifty. This means that you can easily get insta-fragged by a bullet, club, or knife. Even a 20th-level CoC investigator can get mulched in this game, superficial 3e rules similarities notwithstanding. It's deadly.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;305257Which RPG rulesets do this well?

I have yet to encounter any worthwhile ruleset that does everything that I want as I want it.  That said, here's some of the stuff that gets close.

D&D3.X (and 4, to a lesser extent): Rogues and Sneak Attack.  You have to pay attention, or create, the specific circumstances ("Combat Advantage", as 4.0 puts it) that allow you to apply the additional damage.

CoCd20/d20Modern: Massive Damage Threshold.  In the former, it's at 10; in the latter, it's at Con.  Weapons regularly meet or beat that threshold, forcing an immediate Fortitude Save or Die on the target.  (This is very harsh in CoC, as common shotguns do 3d6 damage.)

Spycraft/SWPME/SWRE: Vitality/Wound System.  Vitality is the usual way that Hit Points in D&D, most of the time and represent all of the minor hurts; serious harm comes to Wound Point loss, and crits go straight to Wounds- a one-shot kill never fails to be a real threat, regardless of either the attacker or target, and that changes combat significantly through reduced occurrence.  (I've had several Spycraft villains get sniped through superior tactical thinking on the PCs' part.)

Exalted 1e: Combat between two individuals greatly resembled playing arcade fighting games; you had to pay attention to timing, watch your Mote pool as well as Health and Action resources, and thereby pay attention and expend mental effort when fighting against significant opposition- and if you were on the wrong end of a lopsided fight it seriously hurt you because if they could run you out of Motes first, you got fucked.  (Then Perfects got into the mix and ruined all of this for a while until everyone got them; lather, rinse, repeat- much like shonen fighting series.)  System mastery helps, but even better is if you can beat the other player mentally before your PC beat his.  It's also one of the RPG systems I've extensively used where the spear was very much a viable weapon choice, instead of everyone going for the biggest sword around, and being lightly or unarmored was also viable.

TORG: Use of the Manuever skill (amongst others) to draw off a target's defenses, and can target vital areas at some penalty; combined, can open target to devastating blow that can one-shot an opponent (usually a potent Ord; P-rated targets usually buy off what damage that they can- savvy players do so anyway to force P-rated foes to blow through Possibilities fast and thus go down faster).

Ars Magica 3: Initiative, once gained, stays where it is until Someone Fucks Up at which point the momentum can shift away from where it resides.  This is inertia in action, and should be accounted for accordingly.

Now, if I were going to put together a ruleset that has all that I want and have it work as I want, this is some of what it would feature:  Static Hit Point totals (HP=Damage Capacity=Hits To Kill), Armor as Damage Reduction, Shields as Cover, High Importance of Situational Awareness and Maneuver (so rules for Perception), Facing and Reaction (so rules for Initiative, which would not necessarily be either static or cyclical), Blow-By-Blow Combat (for that is how common people see it anyway), and High Resolution Speed (by streamlining the process, reducing rolls to minimums and penalizing player inattention; if you're not ready to go when you're up, you're skipped--your PC does nothing, is Confused and provides Combat Advantage to others--and things move on.).

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;305527I have yet to encounter any worthwhile ruleset that does everything that I want as I want it.  That said, here's some of the stuff that gets close.

D&D3.X (and 4, to a lesser extent): Rogues and Sneak Attack.  You have to pay attention, or create, the specific circumstances ("Combat Advantage", as 4.0 puts it) that allow you to apply the additional damage.

CoCd20/d20Modern: Massive Damage Threshold.  In the former, it's at 10; in the latter, it's at Con.  Weapons regularly meet or beat that threshold, forcing an immediate Fortitude Save or Die on the target.  (This is very harsh in CoC, as common shotguns do 3d6 damage.)

Spycraft/SWPME/SWRE: Vitality/Wound System.  Vitality is the usual way that Hit Points in D&D, most of the time and represent all of the minor hurts; serious harm comes to Wound Point loss, and crits go straight to Wounds- a one-shot kill never fails to be a real threat, regardless of either the attacker or target, and that changes combat significantly through reduced occurrence.  (I've had several Spycraft villains get sniped through superior tactical thinking on the PCs' part.)

Exalted 1e: Combat between two individuals greatly resembled playing arcade fighting games; you had to pay attention to timing, watch your Mote pool as well as Health and Action resources, and thereby pay attention and expend mental effort when fighting against significant opposition- and if you were on the wrong end of a lopsided fight it seriously hurt you because if they could run you out of Motes first, you got fucked.  (Then Perfects got into the mix and ruined all of this for a while until everyone got them; lather, rinse, repeat- much like shonen fighting series.)  System mastery helps, but even better is if you can beat the other player mentally before your PC beat his.  It's also one of the RPG systems I've extensively used where the spear was very much a viable weapon choice, instead of everyone going for the biggest sword around, and being lightly or unarmored was also viable.

TORG: Use of the Manuever skill (amongst others) to draw off a target's defenses, and can target vital areas at some penalty; combined, can open target to devastating blow that can one-shot an opponent (usually a potent Ord; P-rated targets usually buy off what damage that they can- savvy players do so anyway to force P-rated foes to blow through Possibilities fast and thus go down faster).

Ars Magica 3: Initiative, once gained, stays where it is until Someone Fucks Up at which point the momentum can shift away from where it resides.  This is inertia in action, and should be accounted for accordingly.

Now, if I were going to put together a ruleset that has all that I want and have it work as I want, this is some of what it would feature:  Static Hit Point totals (HP=Damage Capacity=Hits To Kill), Armor as Damage Reduction, Shields as Cover, High Importance of Situational Awareness and Maneuver (so rules for Perception), Facing and Reaction (so rules for Initiative, which would not necessarily be either static or cyclical), Blow-By-Blow Combat (for that is how common people see it anyway), and High Resolution Speed (by streamlining the process, reducing rolls to minimums and penalizing player inattention; if you're not ready to go when you're up, you're skipped--your PC does nothing, is Confused and provides Combat Advantage to others--and things move on.).

I disagree about blow by blow combat. Lets say two people are fighting and a third runs outside to yell for help. In blow by blow combat, you will end up playing a mini combat game for like 10 rounds while the one guy goes and yells for the rest of the group.

If it were blow by blow, then you would need specific rules for doing things like buying time. If I throw a table in our way, the combat round would be a lot longer than if we just trade hits.