Quote from: Warthur;297829... a bad DM is perfectly capable of turning a game into their personal fanfic regardless of how many rules the game operates under.

Good point, that's very true.

Quote from: Warthur;297829If anything, most rules system make it easier for the DM to dominate the game like this because they explicitly put narrative power for everything except the actions of the PCs into the hands of the GM; simply make sure the actions of the PCs are completely unimportant, and ultimate mastery of the game is yours!

If I weren't sleep-deprived and burnt-out I would be arguing against that last paragraph...

Quote from: Warthur;297829Secondly, most rules have little to nothing to do with concocting an interesting story that engages your players

I don't know.  I tend to find good rules to be very inspirational in such concoctions of engaging stories ... but I may be confusing rules and game content...

Quote from: Benoist;297642I fundamentally disagree, though you have a point in that cooperation is essential in a shared fantasy. The question is what does EGG mean by "rules". He means rulebooks, game systems, components provided as gaming products and beyond, something framing your imagination, in this instance.

When you have cooperation at the game table, you don't really need any rules. Rules are just convenient in that they provide a common ground, a support to build the fantasy.

I know we'll be falling back on the "Rules vs. DMs" debate on this thread, sooner or later. Let me just point out that what happened early in the evolution of tabletop RPGs is a fundamental shift from the "referee" role of the DM to the rules as the central arbiter of conflicts around the game table. I think it is fundamentally wrong in that it frames the fantasy itself and smothers the unique nature of RPGs as products of our imaginations.

What you are referring to about "players in a DM's fanfic" and such are instances of bad DMing. That there are many bad DMs out there is something we'll agree on, but that doesn't mean that the game *needs* rules to operate.

I think most people can become great DMs. The relevant question is how to get there.

I got into TRPGs but I've always stretched towards non-TRPG simulations, and I think my intense interest in simulation makes me long for the days of GM as referee.  Referees are very important in other endeavors such as (e.g.) fencing matches ... for good or ill, I try to stretch TRPGs into that realm and possibly I'm yanking too hard on an aspect of TRPGs that shouldn't be yanked.  

You wrote:
When you have cooperation at the game table, you don't really need any rules. Rules are just convenient in that they provide a common ground, a support to build the fantasy.


That's very true.  Somehow I find it difficult to get and keep the common ground.  Somehow I am always desperate for more common ground.

Also I need to sleep soon.

Quote from: Nicephorus;297649I think you're confusing rules and adventure content.  ... But you don't need a ton of rules to accomplish this and then extrapolate in the spirit of the rules to unusual situations.  But companies are happy to provide unlimited additional books of rules as long as enough people are willing to buy them.

True.  

Also I have a bad habit of trying to throw mechanics at a creative gap when what I need to do is get a feel for the kinds of inspiring thoughts that made all participants want to do a TRPG to start with.

It might have been a movie, like that time when my buddies and I went to see The Matrix together and when we came out, George said that he wanted to do The Matrix as a TRPG.  

It might have been a TV show or a novel or a series of novels.  It might have been military history or martial arts or music.

It might have been something else, or a large combination of things.  But much of the time, there is some shared basis of experiences that tends to bring my groups together with the notion that we want a TRPG.  That inspiration is so nebulous, and perhaps it differs so much from person to person, that it's hard to nail down.

Thus I try to nail it with rules.

While we're tossing around EGG quotes:

Quote"The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good."

and not related via Varney and attributed to him, but straight from an interview.  i think it's as relevant today as it was regarding Third edition.

Quote from: kregmosier;298467straight from an interview.  i think it's as relevant today as it was regarding Third edition.

I think it's even more applicable to D&D4 than to 3.x.

I would agree; and posted this quote on my Blog.

RPGPundit

Quote from: riprock;297640In fact, many DMs are not charismatic enough to make up an interesting, convincing story and to get their players interested in it.  Rules are an essential limit on DMs.  Without rules, the players are signing on as bit players in the DMs fanfic.  That can work for a while with almost any DM, but most DMs can't keep it going for long.

With rules there is a potential for shared world-building.  

It is interesting to note that even professional writers can get into conflicts about shared storytelling if there are no rules.  A case in point is the Thieves' World series of books.  E.g. the authors broke the fourth wall at one point and started criticizing earlier writers, saying, "Characters who were clearly of one sex pretended to be the other," referring to a female character who acted like an adolescent boy.

Originally, RPGs were not about creating stories. Look at the GMing advice in early Dragon magazines. It's all about creating the settings where the adventures take place (creating dungeons, creating wilderness areas, creating city encounters). Nothing about creating stories. Stories were what happened organically when the PCs interacted with the settings the GM created.

By the mid-80s, a lot of the people who flocked to RPGs did want epic stories, and they wanted to buy those stories pre-made. Or they wanted to create their own epic stories to show to their friends. But that was a later development. Gygax's comments pre-date the "RPG campaign as epic story' meme.

It's too bad that a lot of RPGers played in plot-driven games run by GMs who were frustrated writers. But lot of people enjoyed games like D&D for a long time before that style of game and that sort of GM became common.

Quote from: riprock;298762In fact, many DMs are not charismatic enough to make up an interesting, convincing story and to get their players interested in it. .

It's not so much  being charismatic, but having the knack of coming up with creative stuff from the top of your head that fits within the context of  the gaming session. One reason why there's so few  good GM's is they don't know how to tap into their creative side and if I have to put any blame on someone , I would  place it on the  steps of  most game designers  because I never read  any rulesbook or article that  has ever trully detailed or explained what it takes to become a good GM. In fact, I really don't think most of them have a clue   themselves.

That said, I think if you want to become a better GM  I would look at the foundations of roleplaying  and read up on subjects such as  improvisational theatre, storytelling, creative writing  and maybe even psychology as all these elements come into play.

Agreed. RPGs were never made, and are not now for, making "stories".
That's NOT what they're about, and games that are "about" that are not RPGs.

RPGPundit

I don't know if that's entirely true. Even the most basic game session will still have a "plot" of  some sort  contained within a three act structure of a beginning , a middle and an end. All forms of dramatic activity from a TV sitcom to a boxing match fit within this paradigm. RPG's are no different...

Also, as to how a RPG should be palyed is like saying what's the right way of painting a picture or playing a guitar. I've played in games (both good and bad) that have been everything from entirely free flowing and random to strictly linear going from point A to B. In the end, what really mattered was not if  we "properly" played, but if we had a good time of it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;299011Agreed. RPGs were never made, and are not now for, making "stories".
That's NOT what they're about, and games that are "about" that are not RPGs.

RPGPundit

To revise, not all DMs are charming and talented enough to keep thinking up details and shocks and exciting stimuli that will keep the players engaged in the play.

Is that sufficiently non-story-oriented?

Quote from: riprock;299093To revise, not all DMs are charming and talented enough to keep thinking up details and shocks and exciting stimuli that will keep the players engaged in the play.

Is that sufficiently non-story-oriented?

In all honesty, it's not about being shocking or exciting but simply being inventive. To pre-visualize and think ahead of what the players will be encountering. It can be months in planning to right there at the gaming  table, but the GM needs to do it and know how.

Here's my method...

Even before the PC's  enter the city, I will start thinking about  the city itself with  all its  different sights, smells and voices, how the streets look, the storefronts and apartments, the Kings Palace, the people walking by, the drunken brawl between two fighters in the alleyway next to the alehouse, the beggar who's always follows strangers new to the city, the  city guard escorting  a prisoner bounded hands to barefeet in chains, the mob of kids running down the street laughing with a stolen duck in their hands, the insane priest who shouts  of random prophecies that only the gods know if they will come true...

All of that was made up from the top of my head in less then a minute, most of which I may or may not use. That's not even counting what I may already have written in my GM notes or anything else that I may use at my disposal( i.e. encounter charts, NPC's,ect).

Pre-visualization, that's the key to becoming a better GM