OK, yesterday my RQ Vikings game got cancelled all of a sudden, so I got stuck with 2 players and wanting to game. Fortunately, I had just finished Esoterrorists and had downloaded a really short adventure (Operation Horn), so we called another friend who had been telling us how much she wanted to try RPGs, and we were game.

The players were Victoria (my missus), Cristina (long time friend and player) and Helena (new on both accounts). None of us had previous experiences with the game.

Operation Horn is set in the UK, and is a very simple and a bit lineal scenario, featuring 4 key scenes, 2 additional / alternative scenes, and a very straight trail of clues. The adventure is about a small group of Esoterrorists (PCs will only meet one of them) that summon a creature called the Horned Man through a massive sacrifice of stags besides Hadrian's Wall (Scotland), and then try to release it in the middle of an environmental protest in Westminster area, in front of the Houses of Parliament. The adventure is really good at achieving its goal: to let people fidget around a bit with the system, and get familiar with it. It's not a very difficult one, and it plays entirely in about 3 hours.

We generated PCs in about half an hour, and they created a medical examiner (Cristina), a forensic biologist (Helena) and an specialist in ancient art and history (Victoria). They made sure all the investigation skills got covered, and they got a good assortment of general skills. Investigation skills are the most important, as they allow you to automatically get the clues in a scene (no need to roll them, but you can spend points from a pool to get additional successes or just to look cool), while general skills are used in a more traditional way (they are rolled, and you can spend points from each skill's pool to improve the roll). All the rolls in this game are 1d6 + the points you decide to spend against a secret difficulty. All things considered, chargen was a breeze, and they liked how the PCs ended looking.

Playing the adventure was easy and pleasant. In the first scene we were a bit slow, because we had to really get the idea behind spending points from pools and the additional benefits, but the system made most of the scenes pretty diceless, with the chance 'I use Clue Gathering and spend a point to get more stuff' statement from a player. Pretty immersive, and it really felt a lot like a CSI episode, which is the goal of the system.

Finally, they followed the trail of clues and found a small jeep with a horse trailer parked at a gas station, where the creature was held until the right time. Victoria tried to sneak and catch a picture of the monster so they could ask their bosses for a special ops team to neutralize the Esoterrorist driving the truck (PCs are part of a secret organization and are NOT supposed to engage with monsters and terrorists unless they can avoid it, they're investigators, not your typical horror PCs). Unfortunately, the creature started banging the trailer walls, and the Esoterrorist came out wielding a shotgun, so we had a short combat. It was easy to run, though I'm not sure if we got all the rules right, being the first time and whatnot. Two PCs got injured by the Horned Man when the beast managed to escape while they overcame the guy, but they managed to kill it with an electric pike, the terrorist's shotgun and finally ramming it with the jeep. Really fun and intense moment, combat can be really dangerous in this game. Luckily, there were no fatalities.

All things considered we had a really good time, and the players said they wanted to play more. In a couple weeks, after Victoria and me return from our holidays in St James pathway, I intend to run the adventure included in the book, which goes by the name Operation Carnage. They're also really interested in trying the Trail of Cthulhu (CoC with GUMSHOE system). I think that the system really lives to what it promises: easy to play, it blends into the background and focuses on the investigation part. I heartily recommend it.

Any questions about the game, folks?

I haven't read any gumshoe core book and I haven't played those games either. I'm very curious about this whole "removing the suck form the investigation" claim. And I agree with their premises : many investigation oriented games turn to crap when the players can't have a feel for the direction of the mystery/how to gather more clues.

Now would you say that it's still an investigation game ? Players gather "automatically" clues by virtue of their characters skills and some are optional with a resource management aspect of the character sheet. Fine. Dandy. What's left of players input at that point ? They just have to figure out how to take down the villain and that's it ?  In old style investigation games, when previously mentioned suck didn't happen it meant that the players were on their toes. Maybe they figured out by themselves that grandma Smith wasn't a harmless pious old lady and found the murder weapon hidden in her closet. The corollary to "the game is stuck and my players couldn't care less about my mystery" is "the game is exciting and my players displayed amazing out of the box thinking". Not a very reliable game formula but with a degree of satisfaction in achieving goals that kind of made up for the danger...

So what was it that enthused your players ? The action scene of taking pictures of the beast / combat scene. Or did they enjoy the investigation part too ? How does the "automatic clues" thing not transform into an over the top railroad fest ? How does this new take at investigation games influence the mood/atmosphere compared to CoC for instance ? I have the feeling that Gumshoe games may need a lot of prep for the GM, am I right ?

PS : I enjoy your APs very very much. Thanks for taking the time to put it down, it's always a good read.

I own Trail of Cthulhu, which is basically Pagan Publishing's CoC using the Gumshoe game system. I haven't played it, but if I was to run Cthulhu in the near future I'd seriously consider it. It's very compelling.

I've got Trail of Cthulhu too... and while I'd probably never use it's system (I've never seen the problems with investigation they seem to think COC has) it does have some very interesting write-ups of the mythos... and good suggestions on running those sorts of games.
For me it's a well done, useful supplement for COC.

With that in mind, I'm wandering if the original Gumshoe might make a useful supplement for turning COC into a straight up Chandleresque RPG... I've been wanting to play some more Mickey Spillane type stuff.

Quote from: boulet;294390I haven't read any gumshoe core book and I haven't played those games either. I'm very curious about this whole "removing the suck form the investigation" claim. And I agree with their premises : many investigation oriented games turn to crap when the players can't have a feel for the direction of the mystery/how to gather more clues.

They make it this way: Investigation skills are not rolled. Instead of that, in each scene you have some key clues (that you need to go on with the adventure) and some color keys, or additional clues or whatever (that are not necessary, but can be helpful to defeat the baddies, speed up the resolution or simply look cool).

So, if you have the proper investigation skill, and there are some clues to be found in the scene with that skill, you don't have to roll: you find them. If you spend skill points from your pool, you get additional benefits, but you don't need them to solve the case.

QuoteNow would you say that it's still an investigation game?

Absolutely. Look, the idea behind this is the following: in CSI people never fail at finding clues. They find all the fucking clues they need. They're drowning in clues. So, in GUMSHOE you will find the clues, but it's up to you to make sense of them. The GM is giving you only the clues, no the solution.

QuoteSo what was it that enthused your players ? The action scene of taking pictures of the beast / combat scene. Or did they enjoy the investigation part too ?

Both. Investigation part was fun because they were sure of finding the clues (finding out what they meant was another thing) and because they liked the choice of getting some additional details that could be useful, or better save the points for possible future scenes.

In classic Cthulhu, if the Keeper tells you to roll Spot hidden to seacrh a room, you may be screwed depending on how much % you have. Many times I asked a player to make such a roll, and the player would look at his character sheet and say 'Oh, fuck, just a 25%, if there's a hidden mcguffin I'm hosed.' And he was right 75% of the time. And if he failed the roll,... what next?

Not having to roll made the scenes fast, loose, and everyone felt like the cast from CSI. They really had fun, trying to find creative ways of using their skills instead of the skills the adventure was proposing.

For example, in the first escene the adventure suggest you can get some key clues from a farmer, using Reassurance. Thing is, Cristina's PC had no sch skill, but she had Intimidation and was posing as a DEFRA agent (an environmental agency), so she asked me to spend 1 point of the skill to goad the guy into submission threatening him with getting the farm isolated or something. It worked, beautifully, and everyone liked it a lot. If her PC had got the skill, that expenditure would not be necessary. But thinking a bit she found a way of solving that.

QuoteHow does the "automatic clues" thing not transform into an over the top railroad fest?

How is that going to happen? :confused: I mean, they should find the clues, shouldn't they? So, what difference does it make at the end, between finding tha clues rolling Spot Hidden or just declaring a use of a skill? I fail to understand that concern.

QuoteHow does this new take at investigation games influence the mood/atmosphere compared to CoC for instance ?

Well, I have not playet Trail of Cthulhu yet, so I could not tell. Esoterrorists is a different beats on that, the horror comes from a different source.

Also, bear in mind that ToC includes a different take on Sanity / Stability and many interesting factors that try to model the way people gets mad at HPL's work, like, for example, the Pillars of Sanity. I haven't tested those elements in game yet.

QuoteI have the feeling that Gumshoe games may need a lot of prep for the GM, am I right ?

That's my impression as well, but I definitely see as perfectly possible to improvise a game of GUMSHOE as long as you know really well your PCs skills. Actually, I just bought this morning the GM screem for ToC, and it brings lots of advice on running improvised GUMSHOE.

Said this, I believe that a well prepared trail of clues helps a lot.

QuotePS : I enjoy your APs very very much. Thanks for taking the time to put it down, it's always a good read.

Many thanks! I'm still a bit behind on the RQ vikings, but I trust I will sort it out by tommorow.

Quote from: Benoist;294392I own Trail of Cthulhu, which is basically Pagan Publishing's CoC using the Gumshoe game system. I haven't played it, but if I was to run Cthulhu in the near future I'd seriously consider it. It's very compelling.

Absolutely. Bear in mind that they don't pretend to do Cthulhu better than CoC. I LOVE Chaosium's CoC. It's just a different take, just as you can play RQ Glorantha for the grim and gritty Pavis, or HeroQuest for the... well... epic heroquesting stuff. Neither game does Glorantha better than the other.

And having TOC is really useful for a CoC Keeper, no doubt about that.

Quote from: Imperator;294420How is that going to happen? :confused: I mean, they should find the clues, shouldn't they? So, what difference does it make at the end, between finding tha clues rolling Spot Hidden or just declaring a use of a skill? I fail to understand that concern.

Sorry I probably worded my concern in a clumsy way. And it's addressed by this other aspect you explained :

QuoteAbsolutely. Look, the idea behind this is the following: in CSI people never fail at finding clues. They find all the fucking clues they need. They're drowning in clues. So, in GUMSHOE you will find the clues, but it's up to you to make sense of them. The GM is giving you only the clues, no the solution.

What I get from your report and comments is that a successful Gumshoe game should be prepared with a variety of difficult to interpret clues. The difficult part is not about finding the clues but about making sense out of them, and there will be plenty of opportunities for players to feel clever when they figure them out. I like this approach.

Do they say anything about devious clues? I mean it's typical for criminals to try and frame someone else for their misbehavior. And many mysteries are interesting because of the cloud of smoke the bad guys use and make the gumshoe loose their trail, at least for a while. How does fake clues integrate in the Gumshoe game design ?

Quote from: boulet;294425What I get from your report and comments is that a successful Gumshoe game should be prepared with a variety of difficult to interpret clues. The difficult part is not about finding the clues but about making sense out of them, and there will be plenty of opportunities for players to feel clever when they figure them out. I like this approach.

Oh, absolutely. Actually, the clues may be misinterpreted. One of the additional escenes (not a key scene) involved Victoria's PC breaking into a house of a guy, just to find that he was not an Esoterrorist. As GM, you only have to make sure that there's a key clue in each scene to be found, so play can progress. There can be also red herrings.

QuoteDo they say anything about devious clues? I mean it's typical for criminals to try and frame someone else for their misbehavior. And many mysteries are interesting because of the cloud of smoke the bad guys use and make the gumshoe loose their trail, at least for a while. How does fake clues integrate in the Gumshoe game design ?

When you design a key scene, you have to list all the clues available and the skills that need to be used. One of those clues must be a key clue, this is, a clue than, when interpreted, will allow the PCs to move on towards solving the mistery. But you can, of course, set up devious clues. It's up to them to find out the truth! GUMSHOE only makes sure that clues will be found.

If I were to set up a false clue, I would allow them to find it automatically using their skills, but if they decided to spend soem points I would imply that there's somethign wrong with the clue.

Bear also in mind that regular people has no Investigation skills. The PCs are super competent. Just having 1 point in an Investigation skill makes you a super competent professional.

Quote from: Imperator;294431Bear also in mind that regular people has no Investigation skills. The PCs are super competent. Just having 1 point in an Investigation skill makes you a super competent professional.

So how would you run, say, a lone investigator (not a CSI person, say just an ordinary private dick... Jim Rockford/Mannix)... in the home of a suspect... who is left alone for a few short moments, affording her the opportunity to have a quick look around, maybe open a drawer?

Even if you were CSI material it seems like your skill might hand you the most likely place to look... but it shouldn't necessarily give over every clue the room has to offer.

Does the ordinary investigation skill turn up stuff that's actually hidden (vs. laying around in the open)... like a gun shoved into an air vent, or a corpse plastered up behind a wall? or is there some special adjunct to distinguish that?

Quote from: Simlasa;294445So how would you run, say, a lone investigator (not a CSI person, say just an ordinary private dick... Jim Rockford/Mannix)... in the home of a suspect... who is left alone for a few short moments, affording her the opportunity to have a quick look around, maybe open a drawer?

The player says something like 'I want to use Clue Gathering (is that the English name of the skill?) and peek around quickly'. Then, the GM hands him the key clue on the scene. 'You see that a letter is there, half-hidden under a file drawer...'

QuoteEven if you were CSI material it seems like your skill might hand you the most likely place to look... but it shouldn't necessarily give over every clue the room has to offer.

Exactly. If the player wants the additional goodness, he must spend points. Also, the GM can restrict the usage of skills if circumstances are adverse, of course.

QuoteDoes the ordinary investigation skill turn up stuff that's actually hidden (vs. laying around in the open)... like a gun shoved into an air vent, or a corpse plastered up behind a wall? or is there some special adjunct to distinguish that?

Usually the GM points that there's something odd, for example, a weird thing with the wall painting, or some weird glitter on the vent. It's up to the player to carry on with that.

My question about GUMSHOE is how much difference does the system really make? I've got it and I've read it and, at least for me, I'm not really sure it would make a big difference...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;294666My question about GUMSHOE is how much difference does the system really make? I've got it and I've read it and, at least for me, I'm not really sure it would make a big difference...

Seanchai

The system is good, definitely, and delivers what it promises, but it's nothing life-changing. If you were already a BRP fan, you will probably keep playing CoC (I know I will).

OTOH, if you're new to HPL gaming, ToC can be a very good entry point. As it happens with BRP, the GUMSHOE system blends in the background quite seamlessly, and it doesn't bother you. Also, ToC has interesting concepts that can easily be ported to BRP CoC, as the Pillars of Sanity or the Motivations and how they influence your Stability and Sanity. But I haven't tested ToC yet, so that will have to wait.

I would definitely recommend GUMSHOE if you want a light system for horror gaming. Is lighter than BRP and WoD, IMO, and if you're already a fan of those systems still you can find good ideas to mine. Laws & Hite's writing is good and evocative, and there are some interesting mechanical bits. Actually, they state clearly that GUMSHOE is not designed to do anything 'better' than CoC, just a slightly different approach. BRP is a bit more granular and gritty, GUMSHOE is a bit more dramatic and literary. I like both.

Also, I think that the simplicity of GUMSHOE makes easy to adapt and use ideas from other systems: for example, I'm toying with using some stuff from my WoD books, and making the adaptation is definitely a breeze. And when I play WoD, I surely will adapt the Pillars of Sanity rules to it.

Anyway, if you're interested I can post some comments after our next Esoterrorists game, which will be a more complicated adventure.

Quote from: Imperator;294700Anyway, if you're interested I can post some comments after our next Esoterrorists game, which will be a more complicated adventure.

I know I'm interested.

Very interested. I did purchase Esoterrorists a couple of months ago and I have been curious how it worked in practice.

OK, guys, I will post it then. It will take a few weeks, because of Eatser holidays and all that, but my group has sent me some mails saying that they really liked the system, so more GUMSHOE goodness is coming this way.

Quote from: Imperator;294700I would definitely recommend GUMSHOE if you want a light system for horror gaming.

That's fine, but just speaking for myself, what do I need another system for, much less another light system?

What I was hoping for from GUMSHOE was that it would offer me something different enough to make it worth using over d20, BRP, the Window, Risus, Story Engine, et al.

As I said, I haven't play it...but it doesn't seem to do that.

Seanchai