It was mentioned in this thread, and I've heard mentioned elsewhere that the bugbear's racial ability to use large weapons was nerfed.  However, I cannot find it anywhere in the official 4e D&D errata on the WotC website.

Can someone please post a link or way to get something official from WotC stating that bugbears can no longer use large weapons?

Last night we played the 4e D&D session of the Dawn of Conflict campaign.  This is the one where we converted our good group from 3.5 D&D finally, and after playing the evil counterpart party up to 14th level in 4e D&D.  

My dwarf, Mordur Erdel, is a Battlerager fighter and this was my first test of the Battlerager as a player.  It was pretty cool.  We had two fights.  We're in the territory of Splitclaw hobgoblins.  The warlord of our goblinoid party is the leader of the Splitclaw tribe, but that group is off warring elsewhere.

The first fight was an ambush by hobgoblin warriors, archers, a wizard, and minions.  We were riding near a cliff face, and some enemies were above us and in front of us.  I rode around behind because there were two archers on the cliff above raining arrows on the group.  It took me three rounds to get into the fight.  Luckily, the archers ignored me.  I charged the first one and pounded him hard.  The next round I hit him again, hard.  I killed him the next round.  The round after that, I used Tide of Iron and pushed the archer off the cliff.  He was full hit points before my hit and falling.  After the fall, he had 2 HP and landed at the feet of our barbarian.  In that fight, I was hit once by one of them, and so I got 8 temporary hit points.  The fight was pretty much over by the time I got to the two archers.

The second fight was interesting.  The fight two place on both sides of a small river.  More hobgoblins, and bugbear.  Only once in that second fight did I acheive the maximum of 14 temporary hit points.  That was quickly eaten away by the goblin blackblades and the bugbear that I was tanking, not to metion the archers across the river firing at us across the river.  

So, in these first two fights, the temporary hit points granted by Battlerager Vigor and invigorating powers wasn't overpowering, or allowed me to mow through the battlefield.

Quote from: Uff;293091Over at the wizards d&d board they have the optimization forum and they have builds that no sane gm will allow..

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18147290&postcount=295

that is just one..
most games are broken. the degree of brokenness just differ.

4th aint THAT bad.. even if the linked build are insane..

But are these builds legal? Are the rules as written broken or altered anywhere to allow these builds?

RPGPundit

They are pretty much always following the rules. They are the guys making it obvious that the rules needs to be changed. They did in 3.0, 3.5,  and they probably will in 4th.  My guess are that wizards love these guys.(doing the job for no pay)

If you break the rules they will not even consider your build to be a top "competitor" in whatever they are competing for(dpr mostly). There are even combos so broken they no longer count them as allowable builds because they know the errata will come sooner or later.

heroic and paragon seems in better shape than the epic powers.

Quote from: RPGPundit;293111But are these builds legal? Are the rules as written broken or altered anywhere to allow these builds?

RPGPundit

Most are legal (at least until the errata), however some rely on assuming ambiguity in the rules will always act in their favor, and other rely on very specific in-game setup that won't always be the case, even if they have supposedly addressed that issue in the build.

Items also play a big part, which as we have discussed in the past and is a whole other can of worms.

Often a DM can 'spoil' the build (why people even bother with builds confuses me) by disallowing access to particular items, either explicitly, or in game (shops don't sell it, you don't find it, etc.)

Quote from: obryn;293095Well, few games will have the diversity of a superhero game, so I think that's kind of a poor measuring stick.

A global maximum is an ideal measuring stick.
 

QuoteWhat I'm saying is that, even within the class roles, each class plays very differently. For example, clerics and warlords are both Leaders. As a Leader, they have an ability to do some healing - that's a constant. However, a Warlord's primary duties are arranging the party tactically around the battlefield, while enhancing their attacks. Clerics, OTOH, can cast prayers at range or close-up, inflict more conditions on enemies, and blast undead.

I see that, but I disagree that those two playstyles are 'very different.'
 

QuoteLike I said, it's one of those things that arises in play, and if you've just read through the PHB, you could very easily miss it.

They're easy to miss because they're small differences.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;293193They're easy to miss because they're small differences.

...and I disagree.  Have you given the game a test run for a few sessions, at least?

-O

I read the PHB and played the game. The only thing that jumped out at me in play that I missed from reading the rules is that difficult terrain is a very bad place to stand for a multitude of reasons. I got bored of the sameness of the classes. Finaly, I tried to spice it up by misleading a party into a TPK and that was a little cooler since it gave me a chance to exhaust all my Cleric healing powers. Whee.
 
After that, I gave it a rest for a year or so. Now that PHB2 has come out I'm looking at it afresh. I thought it was  a good game for low GM prep so long as the players don't need handholding. I did think it was neat how no matter who showed up, the FLGS GMs could just dump everyone and their characters into a game without any fuss. I don't see that much has changed though so I view the diversity as much ado about nothing.

Quote from: Drohem;293104It was mentioned in this thread, and I've heard mentioned elsewhere that the bugbear's racial ability to use large weapons was nerfed.  However, I cannot find it anywhere in the official 4e D&D errata on the WotC website.

Can someone please post a link or way to get something official from WotC stating that bugbears can no longer use large weapons?

Okay, I've done some research into this and discovered that there is no official errata.  The bugbear is not, currently, an official player character race in 4e D&D; consequently, there is no errata about oversized weapon use for them.

Apparently, on Mike Mearls' blog, he has said that no 4e D&D official player character race will ever get the ability to use oversized weapons.  He said that DM's could allow bugbears as a player character race at their own peril, and that the templates in the back of the Monster Manual were really designed for the DM to create NPCs.

I read a really good suggestion on EnWorld about oversized weapons: make it a racial feat or feature which provides a +1 damage with one-handed weapons and +2 damage with two-handed weapons.  I really like this idea and I am considering adding it to my House Rules.  I will probably just make it a racial feat that scales with the tiers.

Quote from: Drohem;293230Okay, I've done some research into this and discovered that there is no official errata.  The bugbear is not, currently, an official player character race in 4e D&D; consequently, there is no errata about oversized weapon use for them.

Apparently, on Mike Mearls' blog, he has said that no 4e D&D official player character race will ever get the ability to use oversized weapons.  He said that DM's could allow bugbears as a player character race at their own peril, and that the templates in the back of the Monster Manual were really designed for the DM to create NPCs.

Nonetheless, if you can use those rules for making PCs, doesn't that make bugbears a de facto 'official' PC race?

QuoteI read a really good suggestion on EnWorld about oversized weapons: make it a racial feat or feature which provides a +1 damage with one-handed weapons and +2 damage with two-handed weapons.  I really like this idea and I am considering adding it to my House Rules.  I will probably just make it a racial feat that scales with the tiers.

Sounds like a good plan, I would be interested in hearing how it works out.

Quote from: StormBringer;293245Nonetheless, if you can use those rules for making PCs, doesn't that make bugbears a de facto 'official' PC race?

Yes and no. It's official in that you can definitely use them, and the race appears in the character builder, for example.

However, the full racial writeups will (usually) include a set of paragon paths and feats. I suspect that bugbears, hobgoblins and goblins will get (either) feature articles in Dragon or some kind of DDI article, or they'll be in some future book.

Quote from: StormBringer;293245Nonetheless, if you can use those rules for making PCs, doesn't that make bugbears a de facto 'official' PC race?

Well, the issue really is that WotC has stated that these races (under the Racial Traits section of the Monster Manual, p. 276) were not play-tested for player character races, and certain powers like the bugbears Oversized Weapon racial ability in the hands of a PC.  Also, the introduction of Brutal weapons made the Oversized Weapon ability become even more egregious.  

The MM is fairly explicit in its disclaimer about using these races as player character races, and that these templates were designed for the DM to make NPCs:  

"Several of the monsters in the Monster Manual have racial traits and powers, not unlike the races presented in the Player's Handbook. In general, these traits and powers are provided to help Dungeon Masters create nonplayer characters (NPCs). This information can also be used as guidelines for creating player character (PC) versions of these creatures, within reason. Note that these traits and powers are more in line with monster powers than with player character powers.

A player should only use one of the following races to create a character with the permission of the Dungeon Master. The DM should carefully consider which monster races, if any, to allow as PCs in his or her campaign."

Luckily, I created my bugbear ranger before Adventurer's Vault was released, and so my whorage has been carefully keep at bay.  My bugbear ranger just uses two large greatswords and not Brutal weapons.  The DM of this campaign has agreed to let my character retain the Oversized Weapon racial trait.  That group is destined to be killed off by our good guy group anyway, LOL!  Although, our goblinoid party kicks some serious ass, and I'm kind of thinking that this destined and climactic fight might go either way.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;293214

Yes, but perhaps my experiences don't count because they support my opinions instead of yours?

Hmm?  No, not at all.  It's just not my own group's experience, so I was kind of surprised.  I definitely don't want to imply that your experiences are somehow sub-par.

-O

Quote from: obryn;293307Hmm? No, not at all. It's just not my own group's experience, so I was kind of surprised. I definitely don't want to imply that your experiences are somehow sub-par.
 
-O

I tagged it with a smiley because it was a jest meant in fun. I'm glad you're enjoying 4e.