Eberron is pretty much the best setting that I've read in the past years. And that is so, because Eberron is a situation. Two years have past since the Last War. A dozen newly independent states. Peace, for now.

And progress! Not another setting caught in stasis because of wizardry, but magical progress. A whole uncivilized continent to explore, to conquer, and to exploit.

And all the Fantasy cliches and D&D-isms turned up-side down! The ruins next to your village aren't elven. They are the remains of the great GOBLIN empire. Drow are savages on an empty continent. Halflings ride dinosaurs. Elves venerate their undead deathless ancestors. And before they were pacated by the humans dwarves were only savages warring with each other.


Really, when I read Eberron I had a dozen ideas for campaigns. A group of scientists from Korranberg University? A group working for the Aundair (or Breland odr Mror) Secret Service? Warforged devoted to the Lord of Blades? Anything. But not random adventurers.

Quote from: RPGPundit;291883And I'm sure that whatever setting the geniuses behind 4e try to come up with, it'll be "TOTAL EXXXXTREME POOCHIE".

RPGPundit

I double dog dare you to write up a parody campaign for 4E based around the concept of "TOTAL EXXXXTREME POOCHIE".

Quote from: RPGPundit;291883But the real difference is that that Greyhawk and Blackmoor had something else besides hipness: content and meaning.

I'd be curious to know exactly what is this "content and meaning" to which you refer.  And I say that as someone who has done most of his gaming in Greyhawk, and happily so.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;292848 I'd be curious to know exactly what is this "content and meaning" to which you refer.  And I say that as someone who has done most of his gaming in Greyhawk, and happily so.

It's an interesting claim by Pundit, particularly since Greyhawk was not originally designed as a campaign world but grown organically based pretty much on "shit Gygax thought was cool".

Now, Gygax was a history and mythology guy, so those influences do creep into the game.  And since Pundit is also a history guy, maybe he feels that gives the setting more intellectual pedigree or something.

I, on the other hand, think that a world made of up "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" is no inherintly better or worse than "random shit a guy thought was cool from Patridge Family albums and Golden Girls episodes".  It's the end result that counts - is the world fun to play in or not?  I could give a shit less what the influences / sources of inspiration were.

I think that "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" does end up creating more depth of content (assuming the guy in question was like Gygax, and not say an ignoramus or a 13 year old), than "random shit a committee of corporate executives thought would maximize their selling potential by selling fake-cool to nerds".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;292956I think that "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" does end up creating more depth of content (assuming the guy in question was like Gygax, and not say an ignoramus or a 13 year old), than "random shit a committee of corporate executives thought would maximize their selling potential by selling fake-cool to nerds".

RPGPundit

How does FR fit into that, considering that it was thought up by a 13-16 yo. who inserted all sorts of "Magical Toronto" content? And has been worked over for nearly 20 years by corp execs who wanted to sell fake-cool? I know it's one of your favourite settings, but it seems like the principles you're setting up for Greyhawk here would lump FR together with Eberron.

Quote from: RPGPundit;292956I think that "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" does end up creating more depth of content (assuming the guy in question was like Gygax, and not say an ignoramus or a 13 year old), than "random shit a committee of corporate executives thought would maximize their selling potential by selling fake-cool to nerds".

I agree that one way is more likely to end up with a more interesting campaign world to game in than the other way.

My point is just that in the end, all that matters is how fun the world is to play in.  I really don't care about intellectual "depth" or whatever.  I mean, Tekumel is the most meticulously designed and intellectual setting ever made, and I wouldn't touch it with a 15 foot pole.

Can the 4e designers come out with a really cool campaign setting?  It remains to be seen.  TSR in the later days was very much a corporate assembly line factory, and yet we still ended up with some of the best and most well-liked settings like Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Al-Qadim, and Birthright (admittedly, we also got a couple of clunkers like Maztica and Spelljammer).

Quote from: droog;291808Okay, for that you get this: The Battle of Evermore

The dark lord rides in force tonight
And time will tell us all...

Robert Plant & Co. is simply great. With a story and song that's put together this well, it's not about the money. Because it's all presented in harmony, you get extra depth that evokes, and it inspires the imagination. Sure there's the battle of Evermore, but there's a whole campaign and the song hints at many possible untold stories. Just Jimmy Page's work with the guitar in this song alone is strong enough to create a backdrop for a fantasy MMO or RPG.

Quote from: jgants;292867It's the end result that counts - is the world fun to play in or not?  I could give a shit less what the influences / sources of inspiration were.

Thank you!

KoOS

Quote from: RPGPundit;292956I think that "random shit a guy thought was cool from history and mythology" does end up creating more depth of content (assuming the guy in question was like Gygax, and not say an ignoramus or a 13 year old), than "random shit a committee of corporate executives thought would maximize their selling potential by selling fake-cool to nerds".

Like Pseudoephedrine said, your latter description pretty much fits your beloved FR (in its published pre-4e form, anyway) to a "T."  And that's forgetting about all the meaningless cool shit thrown into Greyhawk as well, like UFOs in the Barrier Peaks.  Neither are exactly Tekumel in terms of intellectual depth but then, which settings actually get played?  I think content and meaning are mostly onanistic criteria for judging D&D settings.

KoOS

The Vibe I got from Ebberron when I read it (although I didn't actually play in it, almost once) is actually very, VERY different from the vibe I get when I played 4e. Ebberron was made specifically for the 3.0/3.5 ruleset and it shows. I don't think the super powerful, all action all the time heroes of 4e really fit in with the setting. To me, Ebberron takes all the non-fantasy Pulp tropes (Dinosaurs, Hard Boiled Detectives, Dinosaurs, Lasers, Robots) and creates a fantasy setting based on including them.

4e is not a "Pulp" like game at all.

Quote from: KrakaJak;293047The Vibe I got from Ebberron when I read it (although I didn't actually play in it, almost once) is actually very, VERY different from the vibe I get when I played 4e. Ebberron was made specifically for the 3.0/3.5 ruleset and it shows. I don't think the super powerful, all action all the time heroes of 4e really fit in with the setting. To me, Ebberron takes all the non-fantasy Pulp tropes (Dinosaurs, Hard Boiled Detectives, Dinosaurs, Lasers, Robots) and creates a fantasy setting based on including them.

4e is not a "Pulp" like game at all.

:confused:  I'm confused.  

Pulp was all about high-action stories with nearly-superhuman heroes: Buck Rogers, Doc Savage, Conan, Flash Gordon, Green Lama, Ka-Zar, The Phantom Detective, The Shadow...

Pulp was the pre-cursor to the superheros, after all.

Heck, if anything, the powers of 4e characters resemble Pulp heroes more than ever (as true superheroes have powers far beyond what the average D&D party have).

Quote from: jgants;293054:confused:  I'm confused.  

Pulp was all about high-action stories with nearly-superhuman heroes: Buck Rogers, Doc Savage, Conan, Flash Gordon, Green Lama, Ka-Zar, The Phantom Detective, The Shadow...

Pulp was the pre-cursor to the superheros, after all.

Heck, if anything, the powers of 4e characters resemble Pulp heroes more than ever (as true superheroes have powers far beyond what the average D&D party have).

D&D 4e is action alright, but it's not like Pulp at all.

By 11th Level D&D 4e characters are far beyond even Golden Age superheroes. By 21st level, they're crazy, cracked out, teleporting anime characters. It has way more in common with Final Fantasy or Warcraft than any pulps I've ever read (Doc Savage, The Shadow, Conan, Solomon Kane, Lovecraft).

Really, go read Howard's Conan and tell me D&D 4e is anything like it.

Eberron isn't like it either, but it has a lot in common with the over the top Doc Savage stories or the Shadow.

Quote from: KrakaJak;293058D&D 4e is action alright, but it's not like Pulp at all.

By 11th Level D&D 4e characters are far beyond even Golden Age superheroes. By 21st level, they're crazy, cracked out, teleporting anime characters. It has way more in common with Final Fantasy or Warcraft than any pulps I've ever read (Doc Savage, The Shadow, Conan, Solomon Kane, Lovecraft).

Really, go read Howard's Conan and tell me D&D 4e is anything like it.

Eberron isn't like it either, but it has a lot in common with the over the top Doc Savage stories or the Shadow.

Admittedly, I was restricting my thinking to the heroic tier - mostly because I've had very little to do with the later tiers yet.  I agree with you that by 11th level, they are noticably beyond that (of course, that's been true of every edition of D&D).  Still not sure a paragon D&D party could take on the X-Men or whatever, though.

Quote from: KrakaJak;293058By 11th Level D&D 4e characters are far beyond even Golden Age superheroes. By 21st level, they're crazy, cracked out, teleporting anime characters. It has way more in common with Final Fantasy or Warcraft than any pulps I've ever read (Doc Savage, The Shadow, Conan, Solomon Kane, Lovecraft).

In that case, Eberron can hardly be made for third edition. The power level in 4e might be higher at first level but is much, much lower at 11th, and even more so at 21st level.

In fact Keith said that 4e would be even better for Eberron. He was talking about the tricks he used to fit NPCs into the 3e class system, and how wouldn't have to this with 4th edition.