Quote from: DeadUematsu;254363Your estimation is pretty spot on.

There are numerous smart and diligent people like Crusader of Light, Psychic_Robot, and Squirreloid who have been trying to point this out and numerous other problems with 3.5E but it seems like literally EVERYONE AND THEIR MOM is trolling them.

On top of that, from a cursory read of numerous threads, I have the feeling that many of the posters simply do not know the system (like knowing that blaster wizards are weak, 2H being better than TWF, druids are good, etc.) or thier exposure is limited (thier range of play is mostly levels 1-8). This means that multiple issues are not going to be addressed (high level play, bears are not monsters, etc).

Seriously, at this stage of the game, if Paizo really wants to one-up Wizards, they should hire (pay) people who know the game and have them look over the system and recommend changes.

I'm really serious. Things are not looking good.

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I thought the following is a good instance of some of the more worrying aspects of the open Beta test: a thread is closed down on the pretext of its having been opened by a person who's been banned previously. The site editor concluded

QuoteHowever, continuing this discussion as started by the OP serves no purpose.

I found that awkward, since there was plenty of helpful discussion in that thread. And seeing it reminded me of DeadUematsu's post in this thread (quoted above). Here's the Paizo thread:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/general/pathfinderHinderedByFaultyGameDesign

Ayup. I called it.

Pathfinder has only 3-4 months to dramatically improve itself and there's no chance in hell that's going to happen especially when the main contingent of supporters think that there is nothing terribly wrong with the game, think that anyone who points out power imbalances is a munchkin, are rabid 4E haters, are not testing the rules as written, believe GMs should fix the broken rules on their own, or simply do not know the rules!

If I were at the company's helm, I would eat humble pie, admit that we are an adventure publishing company and not a game workshop, and start making 4E adventures. Oh, and if I was worried about the GSL, I would probably hire a copyright lawyer or make a deal with Kenzer to see how to get around that.

...I'm long past regretting making this thing and now I just wish it would die already...

Quote from: DeadUematsu;279245If I were at the company's helm, I would eat humble pie, admit that we are an adventure publishing company and not a game workshop, and start making 4E adventures.

This poll on ENworld gives reason to not jump on the 4E bandwagon,

I'm counting a total of about 58% out of 1063 posters that are not interested in 4E because they have either tried it and don't like it or just plain aren't interested. There are 9% of that same 1063 who only play half or less of their gaming as 4E. Those numbers don't show a strong support for 4E in the marketplace.

Quote from: jeff37923;279267This poll on ENworld gives reason to not jump on the 4E bandwagon,

I'm counting a total of about 58% out of 1063 posters that are not interested in 4E because they have either tried it and don't like it or just plain aren't interested. There are 9% of that same 1063 who only play half or less of their gaming as 4E. Those numbers don't show a strong support for 4E in the marketplace.

Enworld is not only non-representative, it was created around fandom specifically for D&D3 (and 3.5), so I'm not really surprised that the poll shows something like that.  If you ran the same poll here it would show like 90% disapproval, I'm sure.

In the real world, D&D4e is doing amazingly well. Ask any game store owner. I help manage a gamenight at a place near me, we've gone from 1 table and 6 guys to 5 DMs and around 40 players showing up in the last couple of months. We now have 314 members of the local 4E meetup group. There was a large 3.5 game running concurrent to ours on Thursday nights; it has since folded (players stopped showing up, and some drifted over to our tables) and now we have two of their players playing 4e full time.

A lot of people that are hoping desperately that 4e will not be successful--never even played D&D3.5 on a regular basis, and have no intention of starting.

There is also a sizable chunk of griefers that played 3e kinda but not really- they didn't use miniatures or attacks of opportunity or whatever. Their judgement on the matter doesn't actually represent anything. How can it? They didn't even engage the rules in 3e, so they don't know how the changes matter.

A lot of people that are hoping desperately that Pathfinder will be successful have no intention whatsoever in playing it, ever. They just want to see WOTC be humbled somehow, which also won't happen. D&D will continue to rule like a medieval overlord for the next decade.

A lot of people who are angry about 4e were heavily emotionally invested (seriously!) in the Living Greyhawk campaign and are resentful that it ended with only a year to wrap things up. This is probably the position I have the most sympathy for, actually.

The bottom line: D&D3 is a great game- I played it plenty, and Jason Buhlman is a nice guy-- but having a network where a sizable percentage represents disgruntled fans and griefers vice having a network of actual players will ultimate doom the project.

The only real question for 4e haters is "how often did you play 3e?"

I guess I just don't see it in our area.  There's some 4e gaming, but there's as much 3.5/Pathfinder and other systems going on (actually more, I think).  All that shit's anecdotal anyhow.  Sounds like you have a pretty strong network of support for it in your area, which is really awesome.

As for everything else, the most we can do is wait and see.  I don't share your enthusiasm for D&D's future with WotC, but I'm no seer.

EDIT:  Before I forgot, PM sent, Maw.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;279274A lot of people that are hoping desperately that 4e will not be successful--never even played D&D3.5 on a regular basis, and have no intention of starting.

True dat.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;279274A lot of people that are hoping desperately that Pathfinder will be successful have no intention whatsoever in playing it, ever. They just want to see WOTC be humbled somehow, which also won't happen.

And..true dat.

Seanchai

Pathfinder is a bit like someone's mildly interesting house rules for 3.5. I can't see why I'd pay for that when I already have my own 3.5 house rules I like better.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;279274Enworld is not only non-representative, it was created around fandom specifically for D&D3 (and 3.5), so I'm not really surprised that the poll shows something like that.  If you ran the same poll here it would show like 90% disapproval, I'm sure.

In fact, it was created around fandom for D&D.  It just so happened to coincide with the release of 3.0.  Eight years of familiarity with the same game system will have an entrenching effect, but ENWorld is first and foremost a D&D fansite; they have what is likely the largest body of knowledge regarding D&D outside of WotC.  If they are resistant to 4e, that really does mean something.  They represent the thoughts of the average D&D only gamer who has invested nearly a decade in time, money and gaming in 3.x.  If over half of ENWorld is spurning 4e, I would say the numbers out in the real world are not likely significantly different.

Quote from: StormBringer;279348If they are resistant to 4e, that really does mean something.

Other than people, in general, resist change?

Quote from: StormBringer;279348In fact, it was created around fandom for D&D.  It just so happened to coincide with the release of 3.0.  Eight years of familiarity with the same game system will have an entrenching effect, but ENWorld is first and foremost a D&D fansite; they have what is likely the largest body of knowledge regarding D&D outside of WotC.  If they are resistant to 4e, that really does mean something.  They represent the thoughts of the average D&D only gamer who has invested nearly a decade in time, money and gaming in 3.x.  If over half of ENWorld is spurning 4e, I would say the numbers out in the real world are not likely significantly different.

And yet, the numbers in the real world show a lot of people seem to be supporting the new game, and the numbers of people playing 4e at GenCon and DDXP last year were record numbers..

Anyhow, Enworld is no longer a general D&D fansite and hasn't been for years. The original name of the site was "Eric Noah's 3e News", and that was the original focus, but commercialism and the third party industry have changed them. If the Ennies are any indicator, they have very much lost their focus on D&D and are more in the realm of a general D20 fandom site now (partnered with a Doctor Who fandom site). They also find themselves in an internal identity conflict now with an entrenched yet very vocal griefer faction in the community that is more focused on telling people what not to play then on actually talking about playing anything-- much as you did throughout the early 2000s at RPGnet.  But you lost that battle and you'll be losing this one too. Because even as lame as online fandom is, people would rather play than hear a bunch of bullshit from a guy who has already come to the conclusion that he's too smart to have fun with a game.  

Eventually I hope Enworld finds it's way. I used to give them money every once in a while.

I think its interesting that the poll I linked to on ENworld wasn't taken at face value and instead as evidence that ENworld is full of 4E griefers. ENworld was fully supporting 4E as I recall. What has changed?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;279355And yet, the numbers in the real world show a lot of people seem to be supporting the new game, and the numbers of people playing 4e at GenCon and DDXP last year were record numbers..

Ah, the 'statistics pulled out of your ass' trumps everything once again.

QuoteAnyhow, Enworld is no longer a general D&D fansite and hasn't been for years.

The readings on the bullshit meter require careful calibration, so I need you to answer the next question as truthfully as possible:  Do you know what ENWorld is?

Quote...much as you did throughout the early 2000s at RPGnet.  But you lost that battle and you'll be losing this one too. Because even as lame as online fandom is, people would rather play than hear a bunch of bullshit from a guy who has already come to the conclusion that he's too smart to have fun with a game.

Ah, your 'pull an unrelated statement that is also a complete lie out of your ass'  trumps everything once again.

Seriously, is there some chemical imbalance that shuts your higher brain functions down when someone disparages, to the least degree, whatever game of the month you are over-identifying with?  One that causes you to lash out blindly in pain and rage at whatever you think is causing the distress?

It's like you have some kind of custom spider that crawls web pages looking for people who don't speak in glowing terms about 4e so you can don your purple and black costume with the yellow mask to sally forth as The WotC Defender, crushing all who are not wholly enthusiastic about everything Wizards does! .

Or, this is Mearls' anonymous account used to piss and moan when the sand in your vagina gets to be too much.  Actually, I take that back.  I have read a bunch of Mearls' stuff, I don't think he would use a second account for that.  Sadly, I am led to believe you are always like this.

Quote from: jeff37923;279362I think its interesting that the poll I linked to on ENworld wasn't taken at face value and instead as evidence that ENworld is full of 4E griefers. ENworld was fully supporting 4E as I recall. What has changed?

Well, clearly they haven't been a D&D fansite for years.  Which means I must have been reading BizzaroENWorld, where there is quite a bit of support for D&D, and there has been for some time now.

Did you make sure you had the right URL for that poll, Jeff?  Maybe it was from BizzaroENWorld, too.

Quote from: StormBringer;279375Well, clearly they haven't been a D&D fansite for years.  Which means I must have been reading BizzaroENWorld, where there is quite a bit of support for D&D, and there has been for some time now.

Did you make sure you had the right URL for that poll, Jeff?  Maybe it was from BizzaroENWorld, too.

It must be hard to live in a world without any friends.