Quote from: Imperator;273717For me it's like fudging dice. It's not necessary.

Fudging dice, by my lights, is pretty much the definitive act of illusionism.

Quote from: Imperator;273717For me it's like fudging dice. It's not necessary.

What Imperator said.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;273817Fudging dice, by my lights, is pretty much the definitive act of illusionism.

Except that as I said, players always know.

They may or may not know that a particular dice roll was fudged, or an encounter changed up or down in dangerousness, or an NPC they needed to talk to was teleported to where they are since they didn't go where they could have - but they know when the GM is fudging things.

There's no illusion. "Illusionism" supposes that adults watching The Muppet Show don't know they're muppets.

I always roll my dice in front of the group. I don't mind that boss fights are sometimes less dramatic, and mook fights become epic. The honesty of it, I believe, makes the grandness of it much higher.

That said, I never kill a player character unless I had the encounter totally stated out ahead of time.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;274083Except that as I said, players always know.

They may or may not know that a particular dice roll was fudged, or an encounter changed up or down in dangerousness, or an NPC they needed to talk to was teleported to where they are since they didn't go where they could have - but they know when the GM is fudging things.

This presumes all players possess greater powers of perception than any GM possesses powers of deception, an assertion I believe to be untrue.

Quote from: Engine;274203This presumes all players possess greater powers of perception than any GM possesses powers of deception, an assertion I believe to be untrue.

Well, the thing is that there are more players than there are GMs. Simply by normal distribution of random amounts of perception, it's unlikely that the GM's deception will fool all the players everytime. There'll be at least one perceptive one, or one moment of stumbling by the GM, and then the game is up. That observant player will mention it to the group, and once something is pointed out to you it's easy to spot. And once you see it happen once, you look for it happening again.

Which is why I say that they may not know that any particular instance is fudging things, but they'll know in general whether you're a big fudger or a small one.

The thing about a modern illusionist is that everyone in the audience knows they're faking it - they just don't know how. An illusionist's show is not entertaining if you see how they did the trick (unless you're a fellow illusionist, I suppose). Whereas how a GM fools the players is a bit easier to figure out, it's just dice and charts and words.

There's no illusion in gaming, or not for long. Certainly not a whole campaign.

Yup the bastards always know or find out. The question is, how much fudging etc are they comfortable with ?

Regards,
David R

Usually, if things turn out interesting and fun the players will forgive anything.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;274270Well, the thing is that there are more players than there are GMs. Simply by normal distribution of random amounts of perception, it's unlikely that the GM's deception will fool all the players everytime. ... There's no illusion in gaming, or not for long. Certainly not a whole campaign.

I would agree it's highly unlikely for a GM who uses a great deal of illusionism to be able to do so undetected over a long period of time. The less it's used, the more subtly it's used, the more skilled at concealment the GM might be, the blinder the players are, and the briefer the period of gaming, the less likely such detection will occur.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;274275Usually, if things turn out interesting and fun the players will forgive anything.

And this is the important bit. You can fudge every roll, and if your players have a good time, it doesn't matter. I personally prefer that the finger on the scales be a light one, and seldom-used, and well-hidden, but I do think it's an essential part of getting the most out of your gaming experience. Everyone has a different tolerance for it; the only important thing is finding the tolerance your group possesses.

Remember the Forger definition:-

"A family of Techniques in which a GM, usually in the interests of story creation, story creation, exerts Force over player-character decisions, in which he or she has authority over resolution-outcomes, and in which the players do not necessarily recognize these features."

Various other terms and the various discussions of illusionism make it clear that "do not necessarily" means "do not". It's railroading behind a curtain the players don't know is there.

If the players know you're fudging things or forcing them along a certain path, then it's not "illusionism". If the "tolerance" of the players for your fudging and forcing comes into it, your illusion has failed.

It's just more Forger nonsense that is really not an issue, this "illusionism".

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;274341If the players know you're fudging things or forcing them along a certain path, then it's not "illusionism".

That doesn't mean illusionism doesn't exist, because it is by no means certain that the players will know things are being fudged. Again, if you do it a lot, if you're not subtle about it, or if you're not very good at it, or your players are very perceptive, or you're doing it over a long period, the probabilities start to stack up and the illusion can break down, but prior to that breakdown, illusionism exists. It's not as if the first time you fudge a die roll behind your GM screen, some player will instantly and inevitably cry out, "Foul illusionist! Your reign of terror has ended!"

Yes, that's why I said right in the beginning. They won't always know any particular instance of fudging or railroading, but they'll clue onto it pretty quickly if you do it more often. Two sessions, maybe three if each player brings a sixpack and drinks it all.  

So it's not a "family of techniques", it's just the GM fooling themselves that the players are fooled.

Every GM fudges and sometimes forces things along. And every player knows GMs do this. Again, that doesn't mean players psychically know the true result of every dice roll the GM made, it just means they know when the GM is someone who rarely fudges and forces, or does it all routinely.