Quote from: Koltar;271596I didn't see this part til someone else quoted it - probably because I was working at the store since my last post on here.  (And my new possibly significant other has been taking up my time)

The big difference OUR store has vs. an online source to buy games is that we have tables in the store where people can PLAY the games or see them being played. Also , as Mike pinted out , there are people at the store that can tell the customers the facts and fiction about various RPGs.


- Ed C.

Unless you are trying to run a tourney or campaign in miniatures or card games there is no reason to play at a store.

Other shoppers/loiterers are a nuisance to the game flow. I dont want someone coming over to watch me play the new DnD 4th ed. Thanks anyway.

The chairs are uncomfortable. Most game stores dont have budget for nice chairs.

Food is hard to come by. So getting to perfect snacks for your game group is out. If the guy running the store lets you bring in that greasy pizza and smear it all over his products than he is a bit the fool.

Its overly noisy. Can't set a mood of dark dank dungeon with Magic wienies screaming about a crappy draw.

And lets face it. Gamers are not the cleanest group of people as a whole. So some times the smell gets bit overwhelming. Though the stink can help you capture the "DANK" part quite nicely.

And like another guy mentioned just cause you hang out/work at the game store does not make you an expert on all games. Though many a store worker/loiterer tries to play that off to the detriment of would be customer's experience.

So in summation, its cheaper to buy your stuff online, its no fun to play at the store, and its easier to get people to play WOW than to play 4th ed. These things combined lead me to believe that the local game store is a dying breed.

My two scents:
Confrontation & Diplomacy

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880Unless you are trying to run a tourney or campaign in miniatures or card games there is no reason to play at a store.

We would run exclusive GMs. I had about 60 players over a weeks time in my WoD games and more than that when I switched to DND. I had other GMs that would put 10 people in there games and have waiting lists. There are other reasons like not wanting to game in your mom's house, wanting to be able to grab a supplement off the shelf, buy it and use it right out the gate and more. I always tried, for my stores, to make it a draw to play with an excellent GM.

On the downside you also get those who cannot get into other games. Those we did a pretty good job of re-training their play. I had several guys who appreciated it and several who resented it. Such is the nature of the game.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880Other shoppers/loiterers are a nuisance to the game flow. I dont want someone coming over to watch me play the new DnD 4th ed. Thanks anyway.

We had two sparate game rooms in our stores, without products. One used (generally) for minis and the other for RPGs. We had a third table at the front of the store where away from any product but visible to gawkers.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880The chairs are uncomfortable. Most game stores dont have budget for nice chairs.

Subjective but we had folks who said our chairs were more comfortable than the ones they normally gamed in. We had detractors as well. Again, tough one here since it is pretty subjective.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880Food is hard to come by. So getting to perfect snacks for your game group is out. If the guy running the store lets you bring in that greasy pizza and smear it all over his products than he is a bit the fool.

Since we had a separate gaming area, we allowed some food. However, we insisted you wash your hands before handling product. We also supplied snacks and soda for purchase (actually healthy portion of our revenue).

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880Its overly noisy. Can't set a mood of dark dank dungeon with Magic wienies screaming about a crappy draw.

Again, separates rooms made this very easy. I often ran my WoD games by candlelight.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880And lets face it. Gamers are not the cleanest group of people as a whole. So some times the smell gets bit overwhelming. Though the stink can help you capture the "DANK" part quite nicely.

I had, more than once, kicked people out of my store with the words "You stink. Comback after you have showered." My staff had done likewise. People attending my games were aware, amongst rules like no weapons, there was a commandment to come showered and non-stinky. After about the first six months we did not have a problem.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880And like another guy mentioned just cause you hang out/work at the game store does not make you an expert on all games. Though many a store worker/loiterer tries to play that off to the detriment of would be customer's experience.

My stores were around before the internet was real big. Obviously things have changed but here we really did play every game that came in, would call manufacturers, get demo teams in, have members of the staff become subject experts then teach other members, talk with distributors and our customers as well and become as knowledgeable about games as possible. But yes, you are correct, when the manufacturer's website, countless reviews and literally thousands of products are available it is difficult to compete with that knowledge base. A good retailer, and the way me and my staff handled it, was not be be arrogant about it but to engage the customer who knew about the product. Learn from them, ask them if they had played, where they had heard of it and generally try to engage them in talking about the hobby.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272880So in summation, its cheaper to buy your stuff online, its no fun to play at the store, and its easier to get people to play WOW than to play 4th ed. These things combined lead me to believe that the local game store is a dying breed.

My two scents:
Confrontation & Diplomacy

Logic is a dangerous thing. It can lead you to all manner of conclusions that are not true. I would not say that FLGS are dying but that they are evolving (at least the good ones). The days of a singular "RPG Shoppe" dies in the 90s. It was about the third "end of the FLGS" I had lived through. Card Games were on the rise and everyone said how Card Shops were killing the FLGS. In truth, the FLGS were becoming card shops as well as flags. Now, what is coming next? I don;t know but my guess from dealing with Retailers is something a bit more general, more entertainment oriented.

Of course, the above is just my opinion. I am a big dick after all.

Bill

That's quite a thread of its own here.

Sure playing in a store bears many problems. OTH it's a conveniant way to meet new players and I'd say a rather safe way to get to know them. One could be cautious about inviting strangers to the table at home. So it could be used as a kind of airlock recruitment zone.

I wish a nearby flgs had a table.  The nearest store closed this year - I think he was just tired of doing it.  But he never had game space and the one in the mall doesn't either.
 
Not everyone has a clean, largely empty room big enough for 6-8 people.  The problem with my place is the open layout - there are no doors separating the livingroom and the diningroom, so a game would be highly distracting to my wife and kids.  It would limit games to stopping by 8 so the kids can get to bed.
 
There are also people who are fine to game with but you might not want to invite them into your home.

I've never heard of a UK game store where one could actually play in the store, I won't say it's never happened but if it has it's definitely unusual.

I suspect retail rents must be cheaper in the US, but then there is a lot more there there.

Anyway, that benefit doesn't exist for us, the main benefits of the FLGS are the ability (sometimes) to browse and the ability to get stuff now rather than waiting for postage.

Those aren't really killer apps.

Quote from: Balbinus;272916I've never heard of a UK game store where one could actually play in the store, I won't say it's never happened but if it has it's definitely unusual.

I suspect retail rents must be cheaper in the US, but then there is a lot more there there.

It varies so much as to make it impossible to generally say. The cost of a space in the same town in a mall is going to be different (generally higher but again, depends on the mall) from space in a strip mall, from a free standing store. We had about 1600 sq ft in Illinois, small town, for about $450 in the mid 90s. Free standing building, older and a bit run down. It had its own bathroom, two separate rooms and a raised area that split the store front to back. Decent enough location but not at the new mall that went in (or even near it) but on a major road. The northern store was in a college town, MI, about 800 sq ft, in an "antique mall" for about $600. This was one space, public bathrooms, cafe on the same level, one room but easily divided. Again, in 1995 dollars. Don't know if that helps but I thought you might find it interesting. Each store grossed about 85K (southern slightly less, northern slightly more).

Bill

Sounds like HinterWelt had the uber-gamestore. Well your response does make me question your often using past tense. Is this all mighty mecca gamestore still in existence?

Even so, that does nothing to change that fact that of the two dozen shops I have been in during my travels more often than not they fit my description less yours. One of my very best friends even opened his own gamestore with high and mighty ideals of what it would be like. In the end it still degraded down to what I described.

I think the real problem is hobbyists build hobby stores. They go after the business in order to facilitate their own interests. They make poor decisions that cause their own failures and thus weaken the market.

If every store was a Utopia for game geeks than market share would be larger. Then more people would be playing games, more games would get made, and you would do more business.

This would make me very happy.

I think together we have done a great service. Together we have illustrated the almighty do's and don'ts of a game store. Maybe someone will have read our little tit for tat conversation and it will have imparted in them a better strategy for business success.

Till our conversational paths cross again.

I.M. The all knowing Jackass

Quote from: Nicephorus;272898I wish a nearby flgs had a table.  The nearest store closed this year - I think he was just tired of doing it.  But he never had game space and the one in the mall doesn't either.
 
Not everyone has a clean, largely empty room big enough for 6-8 people.  The problem with my place is the open layout - there are no doors separating the livingroom and the diningroom, so a game would be highly distracting to my wife and kids.  It would limit games to stopping by 8 so the kids can get to bed.
 
There are also people who are fine to game with but you might not want to invite them into your home.

Sadly you are right.

To accommodate such an environment I have purposely purchased the products needed. (say that three times fast) For my dining room, which is the site of much gaming, I have filled seating with high backed office chairs instead of typical hard wooden types. My table is small for normal use but expands to 4x8 for game time. My floorplan is ok but the diningroom is very big.

Oh and mom comes by to pick up my youngster on game night.

Plan ahead and sacrifice for your game room.

Peace and Elbow Grease

Quote from: Balbinus;272916Anyway, that benefit doesn't exist for us, the main benefits of the FLGS are the ability (sometimes) to browse and the ability to get stuff now rather than waiting for postage.

Those aren't really killer apps.

A data point from my area.

The three major game stores in the Berkeley/Oakland area all have gaming space; in one of them the space is kind of a "dungeon" and I wouldn't want to spend much time there. The other two combine ample tables (in one case, even an excellent assortment of 3D terrain that I doubt many people would have room for in their homes) and in-store snacks. So they try to be "hangouts", with some success.

This is in an area with pretty high commercial rents, but also it would seem a pretty high density of gamers, so that might balance out.

I'd say that, as "hangouts", these stores probably offer a few benefits compared to meeting in someone's home, at least in some cases. One is that they're centrally-located (but parking isn't so great; then again, they're near public transportation). Another frankly is that they offer a public space so that you can game with people you don't know very well instead of inviting them into your home immediately. This is more of a concern for people with families, probably. I know one friend (boardgamer) has this explicitly worked out: nobody gets invited to his house to game unless he's already interacted with them on the outside.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;272999A data point from my area.

I know one friend (boardgamer) has this explicitly worked out: nobody gets invited to his house to game unless he's already interacted with them on the outside.

Even with my tirade I still do this as well. I meet away from my home first and then move to the crib.

Peace Love and Tater Tots

Boy has this thread drifted....

 Just had another game session yesterday of that D&D group where I'm acyually 'just a player' and my character is a Dragonborn. While we were playing and in the middle of an encounter - a player had his 20 sider roll really bad on him twice in a row. The player acroos the table from him said : "Thats terrible! Go buy some new dice to replace those  right now!"
Now she was kidding when she said - but since we were playing in a game store, he DID get up from the table when therte was a pause a buy a new 7 piece set of chessex dice.

 Crystal asked :"Why did he get up ?"
US/other players: "You told him to buy new dice..."

At lkeast it was in the store I work at and it was my day off yesterday - so I could 'relax' a bit in my store and just play.

As to the original question of the thread?

 Maybe, just maybe the release of 4th edition of Dungeons & Dragons had the bad luck to be published right when the economy was starting to take its downturn.  The new version was released this past June, the economy and consumers started to get 'nervous' around late August or Early September. It could be its not the game itself  - but the economic environment that it was released into.


- Ed C.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;273011Even with my tirade I still do this as well. I meet away from my home first and then move to the crib.

Peace Love and Tater Tots

Absolutely.  This has been SOP for every other gamer I've met, as well.  There's some scary folks out there (it isn't because they're geeks, there's just a lot of creepy people out there in general, and some of them happen to be geeks).

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987Sounds like HinterWelt had the uber-gamestore. Well your response does make me question your often using past tense. Is this all mighty mecca gamestore still in existence?

I sold it. One of the new owners continued it (the northern store) and the other took about 4 years to run it into the ground. It would not characterize it as an uber store although I am not sure exactly what that means. They were pretty representative of the stores of the time.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987Even so, that does nothing to change that fact that of the two dozen shops I have been in during my travels more often than not they fit my description less yours. One of my very best friends even opened his own gamestore with high and mighty ideals of what it would be like. In the end it still degraded down to what I described.

Sorry, I was not trying to say your account was not valid. I was just providing mine as a counter point.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987I think the real problem is hobbyists build hobby stores. They go after the business in order to facilitate their own interests. They make poor decisions that cause their own failures and thus weaken the market.

There are also great game stores that are run by business men. Some examples include Games Plus in IL, The Source in MN and the Lone Star chain in TX. Again, not saying your description does not fit, just offering a counter point.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987If every store was a Utopia for game geeks than market share would be larger. Then more people would be playing games, more games would get made, and you would do more business.

I heartily agree. I talk with retailer almost daily from all over the country. Some who have been in business for 30 years and others who are brand new. I am a big proponent of game space (was when i had my stores and am now). Many store owners do not agree and they have a point. Some of them you have made (undesirability of the space) some are more to the point, it is space that does not generate revenue. In the end, it is their choice but I believe that game space does pay for itself. It is a very arguable point.

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;272987This would make me very happy.

I think together we have done a great service. Together we have illustrated the almighty do's and don'ts of a game store. Maybe someone will have read our little tit for tat conversation and it will have imparted in them a better strategy for business success.

Till our conversational paths cross again.

I.M. The all knowing Jackass

You never know. I would hope that it demonstrates the extremes of the types of stores. That may of gotten lost in my post but I will fully admit here. There are good and bad stores. Interestingly, the good stores seem to cluster. When you have a single store serving a community, not always but it has been my experience, they tend to be the "A group of gamers got together and wanted a place to game" kind of store...oh, and good discounts. That usually does not work out well and results in the kind of stores you describe.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;273020Interestingly, the good stores seem to cluster. When you have a single store serving a community, not always but it has been my experience, they tend to be the "A group of gamers got together and wanted a place to game" kind of store...oh, and good discounts. That usually does not work out well and results in the kind of stores you describe.

Bill

I think people who want to open game stores model their endeavors after the stores they have experienced. Since this is likely the case the best stores would most likely cluster.

Oh and possibly the large population centers of the north.

Down here in the south its slim pickings.

Tootles

Quote from: kogi.kaishakunin;273049I think people who want to open game stores model their endeavors after the stores they have experienced. Since this is likely the case the best stores would most likely cluster.

Oh and possibly the large population centers of the north.

Down here in the south its slim pickings.

Tootles

Could be. I was wondering if it was a function of competition. Possibly a part.