Quote from: Aos;271163Not that it matters, really, but Amazon did not have its current presence in 2001. Why would anyone who knows the price difference between say the three core books at the store and the gift set available online buy it at the store? I've bought three games in a real store in the last five years, one was a last minute gift, the other was something I didn't want to wait for, and the last was $10.00. I've bought (if you just count books) well over twice that much stuff online.

And that, obviously, is the problem with Mongoose's take on 4e's sales.

First and foremost, where are they getting their information? As I understand it, there are some problems with the data that comes from sources like Comics & Games Retailer Magazine as it's all self-reported. In my experiences, many FLGSes are run like many RPG companies: the owners have a lot of heart, but not necessarily a lot of business acumen. Who knows if their numbers are accurate.

Mongoose could be getting the numbers from the distributor. I would imagine those numbers are pretty accurate. But would one actually have to provide one - which I would consider unprofessional. Moreover, would Mongoose be able to get the numbers from all the distributors or just one?

That aside, I find Mongoose's statements to be somewhat disingenuous. The person making them has to know that the book trade is huge for D&D. Of course sales look like they're down when you ignore 3/4s of them. To misinform the public about another competitor's sales...

Seanchai

Quote from: Nicephorus;271229It gets to a point where you have to ask yourself how much more you're willing to pay to support a store.  It's easy to shrug off a 10% discount but not a 50% discount.

Exactly. I get 90% of my stuff from my FLGS, but sometimes, Amazon's deals are just too good to pass up.

Seanchai

Quote from: Aos;271225$104.00 for the 4e books today at Hastings in Albuquerque. $66.12 on amazon- and you can get it shipped for free.
@Ed, it's not so much that folks are being cheap or greedy when they buy online, though, for me it's the difference between getting a game and not getting a game. Period.

Then that almost begs the question as to whether the publishers in general (not simply WotC or other RPG publishers) are factoring in the Amazon and online discounts when they put down a list price.  I sincerely doubt that Amazon is selling 4e (for example) as a loss leader, so I presume it's being sold at a small percentage over what Amazon paid for the book.  If the publishers were more honest in their list pricing and put it more in line with what the base cost is, the great advantage of online purchases would disappear.

--Mike L.

Quote from: Ian Absentia;271232I usually wait until the product has been out for three to five years, then pick up a pristine, barely-used copy from the local Half Price Books.

Half Price Books is actually my main source of print rpgs.  I don't buy a new print version of something unless I'm certain I'm going to play that game and not just mine the book.

Mike L.--

How so? It would really just amount to forcing B&M stores to take a much lower discount--yes, customers would be indifferent to Amazon vs. local purchase, but the profit per book to B&M retailers would be so low that they wouldn't cover their overhead.

The only way publishers could really help the B&M stores would be to either refuse to sell through Amazon, or to give Amazon a lower discount, which would force Amazon to raise their prices. Or they could try to prevent Amazon from lowering their prices (there's some legal precedent for this).

The thing is that none of these options are in the short-term interest of publishers.

Quote from: Nicephorus;271245Half Price Books is actually my main source of print rpgs.  I don't buy a new print version of something unless I'm certain I'm going to play that game and not just mine the book.

My position exactly.  And I was exaggerating a bit when I stated that I wait three to five years -- sometimes a new book is on the resale shelf inside of a couple of months to a year.  Never underestimate the disappointment of the impulse game buyer.

!i!

This is what I do, too. Although I mainly use eBay; HPB is hit-or-miss on the stuff I'm interested in, and my local HPB recently savagely culled their RPG section, making me think they won't be getting much new stock.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;271253Mike L.--

How so? It would really just amount to forcing B&M stores to take a much lower discount--yes, customers would be indifferent to Amazon vs. local purchase, but the profit per book to B&M retailers would be so low that they wouldn't cover their overhead.

The only way publishers could really help the B&M stores would be to either refuse to sell through Amazon, or to give Amazon a lower discount, which would force Amazon to raise their prices. Or they could try to prevent Amazon from lowering their prices (there's some legal precedent for this).

The thing is that none of these options are in the short-term interest of publishers.

My thinking is that a 10-15% difference between a B&M vs. Amazon isn't probably big enough a difference to make people shun B&M for Amazon.  Personally speaking, there's a certain threshold for a discount before I'll consider an online retailer, especially if I need an item within a set period of time.  A 10-15% difference in cost isn't so bad on a couple of books (especially when that cost differential is lessened due to shipping), but when that cost difference starts getting to 20-40%, well....

If either a publisher lowers the MSRP (none as of yet) or sets an allowable maximum discount (Mayfair has already done that with their boardgames), then the FLGS has a chance to compete with the deep discounters.  The FLGS can easily surpass the deep discounters by focusing on the face to face customer contact and by providing services that a deep discounter can't provide, but if the price gap is too great people will use the FLGS for research and then go buy online.

Sure, that means that the FLGS won't have as much to pocket per sale, but having some sales vs. no sales is what I'm thinking of.

--Mike L.

Also, from this thread:

"I don't usually discuss business on these forums, but I will answer enough to say, "4E is doing well for us." 4E is definitely smaller than the launch of 3.0 so many years ago, and people have a valid point in saying it's a smaller "edition launch" overall. But compared to the trends of the last couple years, 4E has definitely caused a significant increase in sales.

In answer to the specific callout that you quoted, "I haven't heard of any 4e third-party products selling in significant numbers", there was a period in the early days of 3.0 where ANYTHING with the d20 logo could sell great numbers. That effect has not been repeated. And many distributors and retailers who were burned by that period are being even more strict with the (limited) pool of GSL goods available. There may be some third party publishers who hoped that the GSL would be their trampoline into the sales stratosphere... but this time around it appears to require quality product, good partnerships, effective marketing, and all the other nuts-and-bolts business basics, GSL or no GSL."

Seanchai

Also, from this thread:

"I don't usually discuss business on these forums, but I will answer enough to say, "4E is doing well for us." 4E is definitely smaller than the launch of 3.0 so many years ago, and people have a valid point in saying it's a smaller "edition launch" overall. But compared to the trends of the last couple years, 4E has definitely caused a significant increase in sales.

In answer to the specific callout that you quoted, "I haven't heard of any 4e third-party products selling in significant numbers", there was a period in the early days of 3.0 where ANYTHING with the d20 logo could sell great numbers. That effect has not been repeated. And many distributors and retailers who were burned by that period are being even more strict with the (limited) pool of GSL goods available. There may be some third party publishers who hoped that the GSL would be their trampoline into the sales stratosphere... but this time around it appears to require quality product, good partnerships, effective marketing, and all the other nuts-and-bolts business basics, GSL or no GSL."

Seanchai

Quote from: Aos;271225$104.00 for the 4e books today at Hastings in Albuquerque. $66.12 on amazon- and you can get it shipped for free.
@Ed, it's not so much that folks are being cheap or greedy when they buy online, though, for me it's the difference between getting a game and not getting a game. Period.

If one can save $40 bucks, it isn't being "cheap" or being "greedy" is simply being smart with one's money.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;271253Mike L.--



The thing is that none of these options are in the short-term interest of publishers.

How are they tangibly beneficial in the long term, or any term, really?

Quote from: Aos;271291How are they tangibly beneficial in the long term, or any term, really?

Game stores might help with building a customer base and with keeping people in the hobby.  When kids come in to buy more Pokagon cards, the owner can show them other stuff they might like - like the drug dealer model.  The value of going in to bullshit with employees and other buyers might help keep people interested and get them connected with other players so they buy more stuff.
 
How well this works is hard to measure and it is going to be spread well beyond a particular item.  Stores also vary tremendously how well they function at this sort of stuff.

No offense, but your answer is exactly why i inserted the word "tangibly" into my question. I understand the theory behind all that stuff, I just don't think it is really very solid, and certainly not something to stake your profits on- especially at the risk of pissing off any number of existing customers by denying the an opportunity to buy at a discount.

The big selling point about discount online purchases is, well, the discount.  If you know what you want, that's great.  If you don't know what you want, you either go online to a site (like BGG or this one) or you actually interact FTF with someone by either playing a game, talking with someone (a friend), or going to an FLGS to look around and speak with people there.

Admittedly, there are numerous examples of FLGS' that are terrible at customer service, but the FLGS could potentially expose a lot of people to the hobby and put the hobby in a good light.  The last time I bought something at an FLGS (Ed's store, actually) one of the employees (not Ed, btw) was in a deep discussion with a family about RPGs:  how they work, their appeal, the various RPGs available, what you need to play with, and all sorts of other discussion points.  It was respectfully done without snide or snarky comments or geeky in-jokes.  While I left before the employee closed the sale, the way the interaction was conducted demonstrated to me the best aspect of an FLGS at work.  If members of that family get involved in RPGs, they'll not only have that FLGS to thank for it, but the FLGS will have ensured the loyalty of potentially several customers.  It's hard to imagine that sort of interaction happening at any of the online deep discounters because that's not their strong suit.

--Mike L.