Quote from: DGG;268178Hello,

A bunch of self important crap.

Whatever happened to the days where the number one job of the GM/DM was to ensure that ALL your players where having a good time, because it is suppose to be a GAME and a LEISURE activity that is suppose to be done with other people who wanna kick back and have some fun and temporarily escape their mundane lives.

Now most groups have turned into these dysfunctional things that involve power struggles, high school drama and people who feel that they have gained some kind of power and exploit it in the most dickish manner they can conceive. And, the other people, in the group, let them.

Do me a favour and let me know where you game so I don't accidentally end up wasting my time joining your group. Because I promise you, I'll get up and leave as soon as any of these childish games start.

I'm a firm believer in no gaming is better than bad gaming.

Oh god. I remember these from the first time round. Tremendously entertaining. Unfortunately, like premillenial tension and nu-metal, they already seem somewhat dated. Still, I guess dysfunction never goes out of style.

Quote from: Nobilis;268638Whatever happened to the days where the number one job of the GM/DM was to ensure that ALL your players where having a good time, because it is suppose to be a GAME and a LEISURE activity that is suppose to be done with other people who wanna kick back and have some fun and temporarily escape their mundane lives.

Now most groups have turned into these dysfunctional things that involve power struggles, high school drama and people who feel that they have gained some kind of power and exploit it in the most dickish manner they can conceive. And, the other people, in the group, let them.

Do me a favour and let me know where you game so I don't accidentally end up wasting my time joining your group. Because I promise you, I'll get up and leave as soon as any of these childish games start.

I'm a firm believer in no gaming is better than bad gaming.

This is one of those weird things about white wolf games. The parallels between the IC behaviour that the game encourages (backbiting power politics in vampire, nitpicking examination of metaphysics in mage, etc) and the OOC behaviour of the behaviour of the players attracted to that kind of game is quite amusing. Also remember the era that this was written. Roleplaying as Serious Storytelling was very much in fashion then.

Quote from: Nobilis;268638Do me a favour and let me know where you game so I don't accidentally end up wasting my time joining your group. Because I promise you, I'll get up and leave as soon as any of these childish games start.

I'm a firm believer in no gaming is better than bad gaming.

Brossard. It's a suburb of Montreal. (Quebec Canada).

As for joining my group, I'm afraid I'll have to ask you to take a number. There are roughly 20 people waiting on the sideline bench waiting to join. (Gods I wish I could clone myself)

Quote from: (un)reason;268639This is one of those weird things about white wolf games. The parallels between the IC behaviour that the game encourages (backbiting power politics in vampire, nitpicking examination of metaphysics in mage, etc) and the OOC behaviour of the behaviour of the players attracted to that kind of game is quite amusing. Also remember the era that this was written. Roleplaying as Serious Storytelling was very much in fashion then.

And that's just table-top! Don't get me started on the LARPs!

It all depends on the group you have, the ability to hammer out guidelines, and being able to arbitrate. White-Wolf developers were notorious for sneering at their fan base whenever we came to them with problems and ideas. If you think you guys are being mean and nasty to me, you should have seen what Justin Achilli said to me back in the day when I made the simple suggestion "Hey! You know what would really help us Storytellers! An index!"

Failing that, the best thing I could do at the time was paraphrase a little speech from film director Irwin Allen at the beginning of every campaign:

"Guys! I promise you two things. 1) We are going to have tons of fun 2) Somewhere down the line, one of you is going to wind up hating me."

Quote from: Nobilis;268638Whatever happened to the days where the number one job of the GM/DM was to ensure that ALL your players where having a good time...

He's a game master, not a Geisha.

Quote from: DGG;268661And that's just table-top! Don't get me started on the LARPs!

It all depends on the group you have, the ability to hammer out guidelines, and being able to arbitrate. White-Wolf developers were notorious for sneering at their fan base whenever we came to them with problems and ideas. If you think you guys are being mean and nasty to me, you should have seen what Justin Achilli said to me back in the day when I made the simple suggestion "Hey! You know what would really help us Storytellers! An index!"

Failing that, the best thing I could do at the time was paraphrase a little speech from film director Irwin Allen at the beginning of every campaign:

"Guys! I promise you two things. 1) We are going to have tons of fun 2) Somewhere down the line, one of you is going to wind up hating me."

I think the problem with PC infighting isn't that there will be a loser, but that in every group, the winners and losers will be the same every time. It is fun the first time it happens, but its lame afterwards.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;268602Now I'm starting to wonder if I should just run AD&D again...:hmm:

This is a debate?  Of course you should!  

Quote from: DGG;268635If I didn't allow her happy fun time, or tried to reason with her or *gasp* let her reap the consequences, then the fault was mine. It's like a student blaming the teacher for her poor grade (despite the fact that she never studied, never took notes and never paid attention in class).

Gosh, you've got a point.  I pulled that idea of you trying to "teach her a lesson" out of nowhere.  :rolleyes:

Here's the thing.  In a classroom, if the teacher give an undeserving student an "A", then there are all sorts of real-life consequences.  However, what we're talking about is just a fucking game.  If I have a newbie player, it doesn't hurt the newbie or anyone else at the table if they have an easier time than the veteran rules-expert.  

Call me crazy, but I think all players should get happy fun time... let me think... oh, yeah...  all the time.  That doesn't mean that everything has to be all rosy for the characters.  I've GMed Call of Cthulhu games where all of the PCs came to dire ends of different sorts -- but that was because the players enjoyed it.  If they weren't enjoying it, I wouldn't try to make them suffer consequences until they did enjoy it -- I'd change what we were doing.  

Quote from: DGG;268635As for the Gangrel getting in her face from get go; I allowed it to emphasize a couple of things A) Players are playing vampires and vampires have a hard time keeping their cool in stressful situations B) Gangrels and Tremeres (played by the two players in question), don't like each other and C) Virtually all first time newbies have to deal with the inner beast their first game.

You're citing a couple points in here, but I don't think they amount to good reasons.  "We do this to all the newbies" isn't a good reason for a behavior, it's just an observation.  To me, the Gangrel sounded just stupid.  Does he just walk up to every vampire he suspects are Tremere just to tell them he hates them?  And that wasn't just something that happened somewhere down the line, that was the first thing she role-played at all.  

It sounds to me that the player knew this is a newbie PC out-of-character, and based on the out-of-character knowledge decided that as the very first thing he would get in her face.  Further, he immediately assumes that his character knows that she was insulting him, when in-character he doesn't understand.  Never mind about being polite to a new player, just basic role-playing skills would involve questions like "Where do I see her?  What have I heard about her?" - along with asking her "Are you obviously insulting my character, or are you just muttering some phrases?"

Quote from: jhkim;268680Call me crazy, but I think all players should get happy fun time... let me think... oh, yeah...  all the time.  That doesn't mean that everything has to be all rosy for the characters.  I've GMed Call of Cthulhu games where all of the PCs came to dire ends of different sorts -- but that was because the players enjoyed it.  If they weren't enjoying it, I wouldn't try to make them suffer consequences until they did enjoy it -- I'd change what we were doing.

Call of Cthulhu is a good game. I only played it a couple of times but I understand that there is a huge danger of dying or going bat-shit crazy insane as a result. However I think there is a difference here between your version of "happy fun time" and what Michelle considered "happy fun time". I'll site a section the CoM to help explain what I mean. Did you read the part where she killed a detective ally of hers and then two weeks later asked to speak with him? When we all politely reminded Michelle that she killed the guy she went "Oh? I did? Hee hee! Oopsie!" I suppose for some of us this kind of play-style may be considered endearing and "fun". For the rest of us, we just shake our head.

Quote from: jhkim;268680You're citing a couple points in here, but I don't think they amount to good reasons.  "We do this to all the newbies" isn't a good reason for a behavior, it's just an observation.  To me, the Gangrel sounded just stupid.  Does he just walk up to every vampire he suspects are Tremere just to tell them he hates them?  And that wasn't just something that happened somewhere down the line, that was the first thing she role-played at all.

The players are playing vampires...not a nursery school kids. Vampires as a general rule, don't usually play nice with one another but may be forced to ally with one another under extenuating circumstances. Even in the new system, when vampires meet for the first time, their instinct immediately forces them to treat the other as a "threat". If you think that is bad, try Werewolf. Gangrels are not "stupid" but they are extremely territorial and they are known to hold grudges for centuries. My friend who was playing the Gangrel was also new to role-playing as well, but unlike Michelle, he actually read the books and listened to me.

Quote from: DGG;268702The players are playing vampires...not a nursery school kids. Vampires as a general rule, don't usually play nice with one another but may be forced to ally with one another under extenuating circumstances. Even in the new system, when vampires meet for the first time, their instinct immediately forces them to treat the other as a "threat". If you think that is bad, try Werewolf. Gangrels are not "stupid" but they are extremely territorial and they are known to hold grudges for centuries. My friend who was playing the Gangrel was also new to role-playing as well, but unlike Michelle, he actually read the books and listened to me.

If people use characters that "don't usually play nice with one another", then you'll inevitably have players who don't play nice with one another. If Vampire encourages "backbiting power politics", that's fine, if it's only with NPCs. Otherwise, do not allow that crap, no matter what the book might say.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambNow I'm starting to wonder if I should just run AD&D again...

Quote from: StormBringerThis is a debate? Of course you should!

I probably should...

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;268710If people use characters that "don't usually play nice with one another", then you'll inevitably have players who don't play nice with one another. If Vampire encourages "backbiting power politics", that's fine, if it's only with NPCs. Otherwise, do not allow that crap, no matter what the book might say.

I have to disagree with the inevitable part. It is entirely possible for mature players to keep the IC politics IC, and still get along just fine out of the game. I have plenty of experiences where this is the case, and games run in this style can be a lot of fun. Let us not forget that there are entire mileus where PvP is standard, such as wargaming and tons of video games. They certainly don't collapse because a few people have hard feelings over losing and throw a tantrum now and then.

Quote from: DGG;268702The players are playing vampires...not a nursery school kids. Vampires as a general rule, don't usually play nice with one another but may be forced to ally with one another under extenuating circumstances. Even in the new system, when vampires meet for the first time, their instinct immediately forces them to treat the other as a "threat".

Exactly!!  What he did sounds to me like a nursery school kid who enjoys teasing others, not like a vampire.  If he had been treating this unknown vampire as a threat, the last thing that he would do would be to stalk up to her, face her down and then threaten violence for no good reason.  He wouldn't be friendly with her, but he wouldn't suddenly threaten her without taking a while to size up not just how tough she is personally, but who her allies are.  

Now, it's certainly possible that his character just was the sort who did walk up to any Tremere he meets and get in their face, and threaten them if they say anything he doesn't understand.  I'd expect that such a character would have a short lifespan, though.

DGG, I had forgotten about this whole thread.  I had some geek rage going that day, and I must admit your articles captivated me and kept me reading.

Reading my posts, I seems my point was "This GM is a dick."  That's certainly the most obvious interpretation, but it wasn't entirely what I was getting at at the time.

My point was more along the lines of "Michelle became the player she was BECAUSE the GM was a dick."  It's a subtle distinction, and you probably won't find great solace in it, but it is more what I was getting at.  It was a topic which was bugging me at the time.  I was perceiving a lot of complaints about bad players and I'm of the opinion that many bad players aren't born, they are crafted and forged by bad play experiences.  Unfortunately, I found your articles exactly what I needed to illustrate the point I was trying to articulate.

I think I sufficiently explained my point of view of the articles.  Now you're here to provide your side of the story so it isn't a one sided affair of my interpretation.  At this point I don't really see anything I need to readdress.

Anyway, welcome to the boards.  Since I ripped into you so hard you might be happy to know I don't actually spend much time contributing here, so you need not worry much about any other geek rage pieces like the one at the beginning of this thread in response to your posts.

Quote from: jhkim;268742If he had been treating this unknown vampire as a threat, the last thing that he would do would be to stalk up to her, face her down and then threaten violence for no good reason.  He wouldn't be friendly with her, but he wouldn't suddenly threaten her without taking a while to size up not just how tough she is personally, but who her allies are.  

Not Gangrels. They have been known to walk into confrontations without knowing the 411 on their targets. That's why they never made it high up on the vampire food chain.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;268710I probably should...

I know where you can find some olde school resources...