Quote from: Elliot Wilen;262035(Obviously this isn't a rules question, but a probe into Mearls' baseline DMing philosophy.)

I just wanted to say, Elliot, you sound so sexy when you write like this.

Regards,
David R

I have used Wandering Monsters in 4e.   I make it a weak encounter based on a failed skill challenge or the PCs taking an extended rest in an obviously dangerous zone.

Remember, there is no rule that says the PCs need to fight everything.  I have had players defuse combats with skills and roleplay and sometimes with outright fleeing of the area.  

How much fun you have with 4e depends on how much you uplift the game beyond the minis and the board.   We have 70 people attending our monthly D&D Meetup and I just gotta try this Orcus at 1st level skill challenge thingie!

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;262027I'm still merely giving my recollections from a game I played in around 1979.

You still won't ever fit in here.

I'm sorry about that.

If this site is ever run on your judgment alone, it will be well and truly fucked.

Which isn't to say your whiny opinion will mean much then, either.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;262028Stormbringer> Your post is so tortuously phrased, probably due to autism or another serious learning disability similar to gleichman's, that it's unclear what exactly you're talking about. You appear to be talking to yourself, inventing quotes, and demonstrating a middling-to-poor ability at interpreting ordinary statements in plain English.

Are you trying to say "I think Mike Mearls is exaggerating. I think his exaggeration is a pernicious representation of the way people used to play D&D,"? If so, please say so instead of spitting out strings of nonsense like the above post.

Shouldn't you change your handle to 'Pseudointellectual'?

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;262035My question is: are Orcus and Tiamat only "skill challenges" if the DM decides beforehand...or if the PCs are low-level...or can a 20th-level PC access the skill challenge system to deal with them? (And, presumably, have an easier time of it, being 20th level and all...)

(Obviously this isn't a rules question, but a probe into Mearls' baseline DMing philosophy.)

Good point.  As the first response to the blog notes, skill challenges are a problematic set of rules on their own merits, without having to hammer them into an encounter that really shouldn't be taking place anyway, except as a bit of exposition, perhaps, or a means of advancing the plot.

Even so, Orcus?  At first level?  Unalloyed asshattery.

Quote from: Spinachcat;262064I have used Wandering Monsters in 4e.   I make it a weak encounter based on a failed skill challenge or the PCs taking an extended rest in an obviously dangerous zone.

I think the blog suggested interrupting short rests with wandering monsters.  I don't see how interrupting extended rests is really any better.  I mean, don't you find those to be rather asshole moves?  

Drohem had a good point, healing surges and encounter powers are fairly tightly integrated into the other balancing mechanisms.  You can't just start tossing spanners in the works and expect things to run smoothly.  Especially the encounter powers, which are typically used first in a fight, followed by spamming at-wills until things get ugly, then dropping the daily bomb and heading back to camp.  If you cut out the encounter power phase, there is a short time between spamming at-wills and things getting ugly.

Of course, as you say, the party can run away, but they have still lost out on a short rest.  Which means they still need to take one before the next encounter, or we are back to square one.  Unless they just run away the rest of the day.

Quote from: StormBringer;262083Shouldn't you change your handle to 'Pseudointellectual'?

Only once I start producing the same kind of gibberish that you do.

Quote from: StormBringer;262084Good point.

That's a question, not a point. The question was answered. Are you going to answer the question I asked earlier? Are you trying to say that Mike Mearls exaggerated when he said that he'd heard stories about PCs facing gods as wandering monsters?

Quote from: Drohem;261897What asswipe DM would have a party run into Orcus or Tiamat in a level 1 dungeon?  That is just so WTF?

No shit.  I killed Orcus with an Arrow of Demon-Slaying on the third level of a dungeon.

!i!

Quote from: StormBringer;262090I think the blog suggested interrupting short rests with wandering monsters.  I don't see how interrupting extended rests is really any better.  I mean, don't you find those to be rather asshole moves?  

If you camp in the dungeon, the monsters may interrupt your nap.

If you are hunting down an assassin who learns that you are hunting him, he may strike at you after your night of drunken carousing.

I do not run encounters.  I run an adventure.   Adventures mean drama and drama means risky situations with high tension.

Quote from: StormBringer;262090If you cut out the encounter power phase, there is a short time between spamming at-wills and things getting ugly.

I played the RPGA event Weekend in the Realms last week and we had two solid encounters back to back with no rest.   It was brutal and we were down to blowing dailies and unleashing dailies in our magic items in the hope we could win.   It was awesome fun.

If players work as a team, they can handle two full encounters back to back.

Quote from: StormBringer;262090I think the blog suggested interrupting short rests with wandering monsters.  I don't see how interrupting extended rests is really any better.  I mean, don't you find those to be rather asshole moves?  

Drohem had a good point, healing surges and encounter powers are fairly tightly integrated into the other balancing mechanisms.  You can't just start tossing spanners in the works and expect things to run smoothly.  Especially the encounter powers, which are typically used first in a fight, followed by spamming at-wills until things get ugly, then dropping the daily bomb and heading back to camp.  If you cut out the encounter power phase, there is a short time between spamming at-wills and things getting ugly.

Of course, as you say, the party can run away, but they have still lost out on a short rest.  Which means they still need to take one before the next encounter, or we are back to square one.  Unless they just run away the rest of the day.

Exactly, if the group has already burned up a majority of their powers, then more than likely all they'll have left to deal with a random encounter is the at-will powers.  

Now, I like Spinachcat's take on random encounters where the encountered monster(s) are weaker than the PCs.  If the group has used up all its major powers, then it still may have a chance to defeat the encountered monster(s) by spamming their at-will attacks.

I also like the idea of throwing random encounters at the group when they are resting in an obviously dangerous place, but that's really not part of the discussion.

Quote from: Spinachcat;262112If players work as a team, they can handle two full encounters back to back.

This is true, but that's not really the point here.  What if, after the second full encounter, the party goes to get some needed rest to recover their used powers and they are attacked by a random encounter of the same power level of the party?  Is the group able to deal with the random encounter effectively with only their at-will powers, or a depleted power list?

You can also just introduce "recharge" points in the middle of the fight depending on the structure of the encounter. Because the concept of a "short rest" is just an arbitrary recharging point, it doesn't necessarily have to be represented in game by PCs sitting around drinking tea or whatever.

For example, PCs might have to assault the walls of a castle while defenders try to stop them. Rather than run this as two or three separate encounters, it makes sense to mash them together and simply identify the brief pauses where it would make sense of PCs to recuperate slightly.

Frex, when the PCs defeat the guys at the top of the ladders or whatever they're using and actually get up onto the walls, simply declare a short rest, or at least that their encounter powers recharge, while the remaining enemies notice the gap in their line and maneuver to confront them.

You could alternately link it to their second wind if you really wanted to - in this kind of super-encounter, when a PC uses their second wind, they also get all their encounter powers back. This allows PCs to control the point at which they recharge, and lets them pace their powers more effectively.

These are fairly simple ideas that could be parachuted into any sort of 4e game with minimal modification of the underlying mechanics.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;262091The question was answered.

I'm not sure it was...you gave a very general response that (unless I'm misunderstanding you) amounts to "the DM does whatever he deems appropriate". My question is, what does Mearls deem appropriate--assuming it can be described according to some principle.

Quote from: Drohem;262116This is true, but that's not really the point here.  What if, after the second full encounter, the party goes to get some needed rest to recover their used powers and they are attacked by a random encounter of the same power level of the party?  Is the group able to deal with the random encounter effectively with only their at-will powers, or a depleted power list?

It would count as having passed a milestone, and they were get a new AP, a new use of a magic item daily power, and possibly various other bonuses from items or abilities.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;262121I'm not sure it was...you gave a very general response that (unless I'm misunderstanding you) amounts to "the DM does whatever he deems appropriate". My question is, what does Mearls deem appopriate--assuming it can be described according to some principle.

Why does it matter in the first place? I don't think that's a very important question, and I don't think answering it would say very much interesting or important about 4e.

If you will recall our conversations right after 4e came out: As I said I hoped would happen, we are seeing a very vibrant "culture of play" emerge in 4e. The only people who seem to be hanging off of Mearls' every word are people who are not playing the game (Stormbringer, for example, appears to read Mearls' blog frequently; I, who play 4e weekly, don't pay attention to it in the slightest).

It took my group two sessions into our "We're going to play everything by the book to get a feel for it" campaign before we were already making rulings, fiddling with the encounter system and adapting the skill challenge system in ways amenable to our preferred style of play. We are by no means exceptional, as the testimony of 4e players all over the internet is demonstrating.

As I've pointed out in this very thread, there are plenty of ways of introducing wandering monsters into 4e if one wants them. There are Mearls' methods and there are other methods. Unless you find his methods particularly compelling or interesting (I don't), I do not see why it matters whether he prefers that wandering monsters interrupt a short rest or merely follow one.