Quote from: Jackalope;259045I'm not answering your questions anymore.

That's not surprising. I noticed, for example, you didn't redress the issue of how the press release was actually referring to the Pathfinder RPG, not the Pathfinder line, or how, according to your "logic," we should ignore everything you're saying about converting because you're not actually converting anything. When you're beat, you don't concede - you run away and hide.

So...run and hide.

Seanchai

Quote from: Windjammer;259051The thing that itches me more currently is how much the Pathfinder RPG is, you know, a version of 3.5 specifically aimed at Paizo's core audience.

Yeah. And it always has been. Where I think they'll run into trouble is with their "open" playtest. Not only are the playtest participants just a fraction of the consumer base, but what do you tell the folks whose ideas, suggestions, etc., weren't incorporated? "Sorry, I know we said we were going to design the game around your input, but your ideas weren't good enough, the direction we wanted to go, etc.."

Seanchai

Quote from: Windjammer;259051The fact of orisons and 0 level wizard spells being at-will now seem to come from that angle. They sure make no sense to me from a simulationist perspective. And again, it's a 4Eism that was never called for. It sure doesn't improve the playability of 3.5, it simply alters it into a different style of play.

I have to disagree with you here.  I think the addition of unlimited orisons and cantrips, as well as the addition of an at-will attack power for almost all 1st level wizards, both dramatically improves play and makes the game feel far more like a fantasy epic.

My players who play spellcasters have really taken a shine to these powers, as they allow them to be a spellcaster all the time, in every combat.  No longer do they have to fall back on using their light crossbow.

In my group, we talk about the video game Gauntlet, and the Wizard from Gauntlet who simply ran around zapping things all day long.  That's what we want.  You never see pictures of wizards carting around crossbows to use when their spells are depleted, but the world is full of fantasy references to wizards who can shoot little blasts of energy from their fingertips at will.

Granting wizards and clerics an unlimited magical ability goes a long ways towards justifying the existence of 1st level adventuring wizards and clerics, wizards in particular.  They seem far more "graduate of magical school" and far less "apprentice who should still be under the protection of his master."

And plus, even an apprentice should be able to cast Mage Hand all day long.  It adds so much more flavor to the game when the player can do things like float the salt shaker across the table to himself without worrying that he's wasting a vital resource.  Unlimited Detect Magic is nice as well, as it allows the Wizard to do the "I'll look for magical auras while the thief checks for traps." thing more often, instead of just standing around doing nothing.  And Wizards should be able to sense magical auras whenever they want, that's such a wizardy thing to do.

Additionally, cantrips and orisons that were NEVER used in my 3.5 campaigns are now getting regular use.  Open/Close for example.  Not once in seven years was this spell cast by one of my players.  Now the wizard always stands behind the fighter and opens doors for him.

Quote from: Seanchai;259058That's not surprising. I noticed, for example, you didn't redress the issue of how the press release was actually referring to the Pathfinder RPG, not the Pathfinder line,

The press release was about the Pathfinder RPG.  The single italicized line at after the title of the press release -- the slug line -- the line "Pathfinder(TM) to continue under 3.5 rules." was a reference to the Pathfinder adventure paths.

That line existed because most of Paizo's fans first question upon hearing that Paizo was releasing a Pathfinder RPG was "Will Pathfinder use 3.5 rules or Pathfinder RPG rules?"  That line answered that question.  The body of the press release was then about the game.

It's like 4th grade reading comprehension guys.  I haven't pressed the issue because I didn't want to point out that any other reading is pretty dimwitted.

Quoteor how, according to your "logic," we should ignore everything you're saying about converting because you're not actually converting anything. When you're beat, you don't concede - you run away and hide.

I think most people here can understand what I'm saying.  You're just being deliberately obtuse and refusing to actually stop and think about what I've said.  Instead you're just trying to trip me up and play gotcha, for no reason other than this:  you're a fuckwit!

I'm not "running and hiding," I've just got better things to do with my time than go in endless circles with someone who is displaying the intellectual capacity of an petulant toddler, i.e you.

Quote from: Jackalope;259077It's like 4th grade reading comprehension guys.  I haven't pressed the issue because I didn't want to point out that any other reading is pretty dimwitted.

I guess we must be... since you did post, "I'm not answering your questions anymore" and yet here you are answering his questions.

I guess I need to bone up on my comprehension as "I'm not answering your questions anymore" means one thing to the rest of us and something else to you.

Perhaps we need mensa decoder rings to keep up.

Quote from: Jackalope;259074I have to disagree with you here.

My impression was that, in a sense, you didn't. You mentioned all sorts of ways how the design decision to have orisons for free makes for a different style of play, as opposed to improving the flow of the game for an extant style of play. Hey, if you like that new style of game, more power to you. And anyone who has played Gauntlet immediately goes into my book of favorite people. (If you recall, the archer didn't run out of arrows. That kind of thing offends my sense of playing a character in a world I can take for real. Which is all I was saying. Magic a non-depletable resource? Nay.)

Quote from: Seanchai;259034"A few elements do require conversion -- Grapple, skills (though in actual play, I have found no need to actually convert skills at all)."

"Actually, I didn't say that micro-mechanics need conversion, with the exception of Grapple to CMB."

Which is, they need conversion or they don't? It's just Grapple or it's Grapple and skills?

Since I think it was here you broke Jackalope's final straw and I am sufficiently interested in the topic for the thread not to deteriorate into standard RPGSite diet, here's my proposed explanation of what you're pinpointing. As you say in your final line, Jackalope seemed to be of two minds whether converting skills were necessary for 3.5 monster stat blocks or not. Here is my take.

There is a huge difference between Grapple and Skills. Converting Grapple to CMB isn't just exchanging one expression by another: it involves a (however small) calculation of the number next to that expression. Not so for skills. Skill bonuses stay where they are. What's new are the terms that attach to them. At least, that's almost always true for monsters, as I am going to show.
Let's look at a concrete sample.

Quote from: 3.5 Stat block, Aspect of BaphometSenses darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +15, Spot +15
----------------
Skills Climb +17, Diplomacy +4, Handle Animal
+13, Hide +4, Intimidate +13, Jump +17,
Knowledge (nature) +14, Knowledge (the
planes) +14, Listen +15, Move Silently +7, Ride
+4, Sense Motive +15, Spot +15, Survival +15

Here's what happens when you go Pathfinder.
Step 1. Senses: are now covered by "Perception". Take the average of Listen and Spot bonus.
Step 2. Other skills: beware synergies. As a rule of thumb (potential problem!), take the mean number. So:

Quote from: Pathfinder Stat block, Aspect of BaphometSenses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +15

Skills Climb +17, Diplomacy +4, Handle Animal
+13, Hide +4, Intimidate +13, Acrobatics +17,
Knowledge (nature) +14, Knowledge (the
planes) +14, Move Silently +7, Ride +4,
Sense Motive +15, Survival +15

Guess what? Apart from folding "Spot" and "Listen" into "Perception", and "Jump" into "Acrobatics", no changes were needed. Since the list of skills mentioned in a 3.5 monster stat blocks (contrast NPCs) is constant, this is all you ever need to do. The reason why a Pathfinder DM could run 3.5 monsters out of the book as far as skills are concerned, is simply that he is familiar with how skills translate over from 3.5 to Pathfinder from his experience with asking skill checks from the PCs. It's like propping open the 3.0 Manual of Planes and not thinking, "gosh, here is Intuit Direction, how does that translate into the 3.5 skill system?". Fact is, of the many, many problems behind 3.0-3.5 convertion, skills has never been one of them.

I agree that skill conversion isn't important.  You can simply use the relevent rules from the ruleset from which the element comes and apply it to the situation.  For example, 3.5 monster can Spot and Listen while a Pathfinder monster in the same situation can Percieve.  There's really no need to convert those, since in both cases you have a rule that works the same way to cover the same situation; it just has a different label.

Quote from: Jackalope;259077The press release was about the Pathfinder RPG.  The single italicized line at after the title of the press release -- the slug line -- the line "Pathfinder(TM) to continue under 3.5 rules." was a reference to the Pathfinder adventure paths...It's like 4th grade reading comprehension guys.  I haven't pressed the issue because I didn't want to point out that any other reading is pretty dimwitted.

"The Pathfinder RPG is designed with backward compatibility as one of its primary goals, so players will continue to enjoy their lifelong fantasy gaming hobby without invalidating their entire game library."

The press release - all of it - is clearly intended to let folks know that they'll be able to use their 3.5 materials with the Pathfinder RPG.

Seanchai

Quote from: Windjammer;259129There is a huge difference between Grapple and Skills. Converting Grapple to CMB isn't just exchanging one expression by another: it involves a (however small) calculation of the number next to that expression. Not so for skills. Skill bonuses stay where they are.

Perhaps. But since D&D has become more of a skill-based game outside of combat, what skills you have and how many points you have to put toward them matter. Consider the poor 3e or 3.5 fighter, who, in my estimation, gets the shaft and is made less enticing because of it. Thus, to my mind, when Pathfinder reduces the skill list and number of skill points available, it's not a matter of labels, but a matter of capacity.

Quote from: Windjammer;259129The reason why a Pathfinder DM could run 3.5 monsters out of the book as far as skills are concerned, is simply that he is familiar with how skills translate over from 3.5 to Pathfinder [ifrom his experience with asking skill checks from the PCs[/i].

So Pathfinder is only backwards compatible if you're familiar enough with the rules sets?

I'll bring up my CoC campaign again. I used BRP materials for a d20 game - in a different era, to boot - without ever sitting down and doing a conversion. I either made up the relative statistics and attributes out of the whole cloth as needed or guesstimated based on past experience with both systems. Does that make BRP and d20 backwards compatible? Isn't the essence of Jackalope's argument that if a GM can do that, they're backwards compatible?

Because if you think that doesn't make them backwards compatible, what a GM can do or not do on the fly is a moot point in terms of Pathfinder being backwards compatible with 3.5.

But, really, for me, this goes far beyond just skills. It seems to me that Pathfinder isn't just changing a few things, but making at least small changes in a wide variety of areas. It's that, more than any other one thing, which I think makes Pathfinder not so suitable for use with my library of 3.5 materials.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;259376when Pathfinder reduces the skill list and number of skill points available, it's not a matter of labels, but a matter of capacity.

I think that's a non sequitur, just as the reduction of skills (and skill points) in 4th edition doesn't entail that (a) skill checks come up less rarely in the game and (b) that the set of skills, in their entirety, now covers a narrower range than in previous editions (3.5, Pathfinder) which had more skills. Take "Perception", which goes proxy for "Spot" and "Listen" in Pathfinder. The number of times a 3.5 DM would have called for "Spot" and "Listen" checks equals the number he (playing Pathfinder) asks for "Perception" checks. So the range of situations in which skill checks are called for haven't changed. (Contrast a case where a skill is simply gone - "Use Rope" vanished from Pathfinder, but to be honest, I didn't use it much, if ever, in my 3.5 games.)

The other thing you said, that the fighter gets shafted even more, isn't true either. The fact that players now have fewer skills to invest their (identical) number of skill points in, means they - on average - have more ranks in the skills. My wizard player actually didn't like this, he thought that wizards in Pathfinder get too many skill points. So it's hard for me to find common ground with you here. It may help to remember that investing skill points in skills which aren't class skills for you no longer comes with any penalty (this is only slightly balanced by the fact that being trained in a skill now gives a flat +3 bonus once you invest the first skill point). That alone shows that, in the long run, players will end up with higher ranks in a wider range of skills than they would have in 3.5. Agreed?

Quote from: Seanchai;259376So Pathfinder is only backwards compatible if you're familiar enough with the rules sets?

Remember? I'm on board with you on saying that Pathfinder (a) doesn't have the "3.5/OGL compatible" sticker on it and (b) that there is a justified reason for that being so. However, when I wrote my post you quote from, I totally avoided the backwards compatibility issue. For the reason you mention:

Quote from: Seanchai;259376But, really, for me, this goes far beyond just skills.

Exactly. No way could I use a monster statblock in 3.0 Manual of the Planes in its entirety in my 3.5 game just "out of the book". A lot of stuff changed with 3.5 - hit points, CRs, damage reduction (oh boy), not to mention any monster with any spell-like or supernatural ability. There are tons of changes, as a single look at WotC' own 3.0->3.5 errata files will tell you. Tons. However, skills was never a problem. If you just looked at skills, you could run a 3.0 stat block out of the book, and I say the same holds for 3.5 into Pathfinder. And agreed, this doesn't mean that Pathfinder is, as far as skills go, let alone as a complete system, "backwards compatible". But, if you look again, I was trying to debate a point on Jackalope's behalf: there is a difference in the amount of effort to convert into CMB and into Pathfinder skills. What conclusions you draw from that is up to you - believe me, I am certainly drawing my own.

Quote from: Seanchai;259370The press release - all of it - is clearly intended to let folks know that they'll be able to use their 3.5 materials with the Pathfinder RPG.

No.  I'm sorry, but you have the reading skills of a six year old if you believe that is true.

Here is the press release we are discussing in it's entirety:   Paizo Publishing® Announces the Pathfinder RPG™
Pathfinder™ to continue under the 3.5 rules.
Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 12:00 PM

Paizo Publishing today unveiled the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, a tabletop fantasy roleplaying game that will serve as the anchor for the company's popular line of Pathfinder adventures, sourcebooks, and campaigns. Today marks the beginning of a year-long Open Playtest of the new rules, which are based upon the popular 3.5 rules available under the Open Game License. The Pathfinder RPG is designed with backward compatibility as one of its primary goals, so players will continue to enjoy their lifelong fantasy gaming hobby without invalidating their entire game library. The first Pathfinder RPG Alpha release is available now as a free 65-page PDF download at paizo.com/pathfinderRPG. Until the finished Pathfinder RPG's release as a hardcover rulebook in August 2009, all of Paizo's popular Pathfinder-brand products will continue under the current 3.5 rules set.

"I'm really excited to work with the playtesters to make this the best game possible," said Jason Bulmahn, Paizo's Lead Designer. "In the spirit of the Open Game movement, the Pathfinder RPG is really your roleplaying game. It's a huge thrill to get to lead the design process."

Paizo will issue additional Pathfinder RPG Alpha releases in the coming months, covering new changes and additions to the 3.5 rules. Gamers can download, read, and participate in the free open playtest by setting up a paizo.com account and joining the discussion with Paizo's design staff at paizo.com/pathfinderRPG. The Pathfinder RPG will be backward-compatible with the 3.5 rules, and the staff has kept this goal as a primary focus since design began in 2007.

This coming August, Paizo will release a massive, full-color, softcover Pathfinder RPG Beta release for $24.99. This book will be available on paizo.com, at Gen Con, as well as through hobby distribution at local game stores. Just like the Alpha releases, the Beta release will be available as a free PDF download on paizo.com. As Wizards of the Coast's core 3.5 rulebooks are expected to go out of print with the release of 4th Edition, Paizo will use the Pathfinder RPG as a replacement for the 3.5 core rules. The Pathfinder RPG Beta release will represent Paizo's first published take on an updated 3.5 system, and playtesting will continue through spring 2009, when Paizo will incorporate the open playtest feedback and create a hardcover Pathfinder RPG for release in the hobby trade, bookstores, and paizo.com in August 2009.

Paizo hopes to support 4th Edition with fan-created online conversions of its Pathfinder products and a complete line from its partner company, Necromancer Games, a trend-setter in the original Open Gaming movement. Necromancer has already announced a new 4th Edition version of their award-winning Tome of Horrors monster encyclopedia, and has plans for additional player and GM support products.

Today, Paizo also announced the hiring of Nicolas Logue to run the Pathfinder Society organized play campaign, a massive mega-campaign to launch at this year's Gen Con. The Pathfinder Society will feature events at major conventions, retail stores, and home play as a way to involve thousands of players in a constantly evolving campaign environment fueled by downloadable scenarios released by Paizo. Nicolas Logue is a long-time Paizo contributor to the print versions of Dragon and Dungeon as well as the Pathfinder Adventure Paths and Pathfinder Modules line. He also co-runs an annual competition at Gen Con called Iron DM that will continue to be co-run by Nicolas Logue and his Iron DM compatriots. Nick begins working at Paizo in April.

"Nicolas Logue is one of the most energetic, personable gamers I have ever met," said Erik Mona, Paizo's Publisher and the co-founder during his tenure at Wizards of the Coast of Living Greyhawk, the largest organized play RPG campaign in history. "Running a successful organized play campaign involves a magical combination of cool ideas, organizational skills, and enthusiasm. Nick is absolutely the perfect man for the job, and I'm thrilled that he will be joining us here at Paizo."

Additional information on the Pathfinder Society campaign can be found at paizo.com/pathfindersociety.

Clearly, anyone with the intelligence of a 12 year old can tell you that this press release discusses multiple topics.  Your claim that "all of it" discuss 3.5 compatibility is patently false.  Obviously the discussion of the hiring of Nick Logue had nothing to do with compatibility, nor does the announcement of Pathfinder Society, or the bits about 4E and Necromancer Games.  So obviously you're wrong, and why are you wrong?  Poor reading comprehension stemming from an obtuse refusal to actually read what's written, and instead replacing it in your head with cockamamie bullshit.

But the actual point of contention is this line, the sub-title:   Pathfinder™ to continue under the 3.5 rules.Let's look at the title and sub-title next to each other:   Paizo Publishing® Announces the Pathfinder RPG™.  Pathfinder™ to continue under the 3.5 rules.It's really hard to put it anymore clearer than that, but one could actually connect the two statements explicitly (for the readers out there with 3rd grade and lower comprehension levels):   Paizo announces the Pathfinder RPG, but Pathfinder™ to continue under the 3.5 rules.Finally, there is this line:   Until the finished Pathfinder RPG's release as a hardcover rulebook in August 2009, all of Paizo's popular Pathfinder-brand products will continue under the current 3.5 rules set.If you still don't understand what the line "Pathfinder™ to continue under the 3.5 rules." means after reading that line, you're a fucking idiot.

I mean seriously, you are just balls stupid.  You should hang your head in shame because you are a Grade A moron.

Also, here are the only statements in the press release that actually address backwards compatibility.  All two sentences.
   The Pathfinder RPG is designed with backward compatibility as one of its primary goals, so players will continue to enjoy their lifelong fantasy gaming hobby without invalidating their entire game library....The Pathfinder RPG will be backward-compatible with the 3.5 rules, and the staff has kept this goal as a primary focus since design began in 2007.A careful read of this claim will notice something:  Nowhere does Paizo make the claim that no part of your gaming library will be invalidated.  So long as at least some part of the average 3.5 D&D gamer's library remains valid and compatible with Pathfinder RPG, then their claim remains truthful.

Folks, get your mensa decoder rings out...

Quote from: CavScout;259507Folks, get your mensa decoder rings out...

Don't bring that crap into RPG, Cav.