I was going back over my PHB.  Can someone explain page 10, Intelligence Table II:  Ability for Magic-Users....?
The text seems to indicate that a 1st level MU would take his INT and find the appropriate "Chance to KNow each spell" and then go through the 30 spells (1st level) and roll for each.  
Any failed rolls meant you could not learn that spell.
Is that a correct reading??

Is there any text which indicates which spells a 1st level MU is supposed to know from the 1st level list??  Or was that by DM fiat.

Thanks
Tim
P.S.  I was ignorant back then to the MU rules as I usually went with thieves or fighters..

You more or less have it. The chance to know really is a chance to learn. Whenever your MU comes across a spell which is new to them and is a level they can cast, you roll to see if they can learn it. If you fail, you can't learn it.

But every MU is limited by the minimum and maximum numbers of spells of each spell level; you always know something, but your knowledge is always limited.

For starting spells, see the DMG, p.39.

MUs begin with Read Magic (whatever their rolls, they must have this, since without it they can't read their own spell books and could never have become MUs), then a roll is made to give the MU one each of offensive, defensive, and miscellaneous spells, there are nine in each category and the tenth option is that the player chooses. It notes,    "If your campaign is particularly difficult, you may wish to allow choice automatically. You can futhermore allow an extra defensive or miscellaneous spell, so that the characer begins with 5 spells."
When an MU gains a level, they get to add one spell of their choice. Anything beyond that starting 4-5 +1/level the MU must find during the campaign, succeed at their learning roll, and then scribe in their spell book. The spell book is required each day when they memorise their spells.

Yes, that's a correct reading.  However, you don't have to roll for all 1st level spells.  You only have to roll until you either reach the Minimum Number of Spells/Level or the Maximum Number of Spells/Level.

In the section Chance to Know Each Spell Listed under the section Notes Regarding Intelligence Table II, it states that the player may choose to roll for a spell in any order in a group (i.e. 1st level at creation).

So, according the PHB a character can choose his spells known at 1st level, as long as he rolls under his percentage chance to know that spell.

Quote from: timrichter9;254817Is there any text which indicates which spells a 1st level MU is supposed to know from the 1st level list??  Or was that by DM fiat.

DMG p 39, "Acquisition of Magic-User Spells"

The above are the official rules.  In practice, it was common for DMs to let the player pick read magic + 3 spells and either not use rolls at all or use them only for learning new spells from books/scrolls.

There's some disagreement over whether you're supposed to check all spells at once (upon character creation for 1st level spells, upon achieving 3rd level for 2nd level spells, etc.) or if you check each spell as you find it (in a scroll or spell book). In the former you know right away all the spells your character will ever be able to learn and it's just a matter of finding those spells; in the latter you find the spell first, then determine if you can learn it. I prefer (and think the original intent was) the latter, but a straightforward reading of the text seems to suggest the former, so there you have it.

Quote from: T. Foster;254863I prefer (and think the original intent was) the latter, but a straightforward reading of the text seems to suggest the former, so there you have it.

I agree that the straight text seems to indicate that you run through all of them when you advance the level.  Ahhh...reading the old PHB brings me back, including all the rules disagreements.

Ciao

The big advantage of old school games is fast chargen and I always felt that the rolling for all your spells at once was slow.   I gave the player a starting spellbook with a number of first level spells of their choice equal to their defined INT minimum.   Fast and easy.

I only used that percentage for new spells found along the way in the campaign.  Spend one day with the weird scroll and make the roll.  Or go pay a sage a big bag of coins to decipher it for you!  

Also, if the mage found a scroll he could not understand, I always gave him another roll at his next level to try to decipher it with his new advanced knowledge.  It was fun to have mages wander about with mysterious tomes that even they could not decipher.

There is no disagreement as to what to do. The player's book says one thing and vaguely; the DM's book says something else and clearly.

In a game where the DM is advised to deal with annoying players by means of blue bolts from heaven, attacks of etheral mummies by surprise, and reducing their character's Charisma stat ("appropriately", the guide adds parenthetically), and where the DM is also told that the players must never gaze in the DMG, and if they do their characters should lose coin and magic items as "payment to sages", in such a game there can be no doubt that the DMG overrides whatever's said in the PHB.

When in doubt, always go with the DM's book. Just as the DM controls what happens at the game table, the DM's guide controls what happens in the rules.

MUs begin with Read Magic, one offensive, one defensive, and one miscellaneous spell; if the campaign is particularly dangerous, they get one more of either of the latter two, and may even get to choose which of the spells they get.

...You know, I found it wierd that 3rd edition wizards could learn every single Sorcerer/Wizard spell. Well, aside from favored/forbidden school options.

(Nowhere near an old-school gamer)

That is just the progression of all sorts of games towards munchkinism, Narf. Once video games came along with cheat codes it was all downhill from there. The wussy whiny players Gygax took Charisma points off grew up to be game designers, and made it so they'd never have to fail.

Hmm. I've never had a problem with cheat codes. Sometimes I play for gonzo; sometimes I play for real. Never in multi-player, though.

I think my best D&D would be a mix of old and new school. There's things I like about both - Granted that the closest I've gotten, other than reading, to old school is Curse of the Asure Bonds on the Amiga 500.

Anyway, I like the idea of general case task resolution; I like flavor over mechanics; I like never feeling useless (Or, more accurately, why should a Magic-User run out of spells? Run out of big, important spells, sure); I like real consequences; I like a gameworld I can sink my teeth in.

New-school wins on the first one, it's mixed on the second (Although 4e takes a nose-dive), old-school and 3e take a nose-dive on the third; 3e and 4e are penalized on the fourth, don't know about old-school; can't really judge on fifth.

I'm getting closer to trying out old-school, but my mind likes to poke things with sticks first. And race/class restrictions seem...Pointless to me.

Well, the race/class restrictions are just the beginning of attempts at dealing with munchkins, in combination with ensuring everyone had their little niche to explore. Bear in mind that all this AD&D1e stuff was written with a dozen players at a game table being quite normal.

With that many players, it's hard for the GM to make sure that nobody is finding a loophole in the game system and pushing their 25th level half-dragon-half-drow lesbianstripperninja with twin katanas and 18/00 Strength through it, and also a lot harder to make sure everyone gets a fair chance to do something interesting and fun in the game session.

With the more typical four or so players of nowadays, it's a lot easier for GMs to keep an eye on things to slap munchkins down and bring everyone into the events of the session.

I think it was common to ignore lots of AD&D as written, and actually play something more like Basic D&D but with extra options from AD&D (a point from jrients' blog). I think Gary Gygax himself more usually played OD&D(?)

So if you find a rule that you can't imagine anyone using, it might actually be that it wasn't commonly used.

Yeah, I'd throw them (R/C restrictions) out if I ran, or make a serious pitch to the GM about it.

Hmm...You know, I'm looking for gaming. And there's these .pdfs that aren't legally the original game...

...Anyone running a PBEM or PBP old-school game around here?