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RPGs and Realism

Started by gleichman, September 29, 2008, 02:45:42 PM

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Seanchai

#75
September 30, 2008, 12:05:37 PM
Quote from: flyingmice;252681Well, I agree with the above, but then I've long ago given up the search for realism and settled for verisimilitude, which, as you point out, is illusion, the opposite of realism. Still, well done verisimilitude is good enough for me. Perhaps I have low expectations...

I shoot for verisimilitude as reality is wacky and unexpected. Rules don't model it well - they only model expectations and beliefs.

Seanchai
"Thus tens of children were left holding the bag. And it was a bag bereft of both Hellscream and allowance money."

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Seanchai

#76
September 30, 2008, 12:25:18 PM
Quote from: Balbinus;252934In ordinary life, if someone says that a desired outcome is unrealistic, we know what that means.

Yeah - that it doesn't conform to their expectations.

Seanchai
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Fritzs

#77
September 30, 2008, 12:28:31 PM
gleichman: I don't think, that combat is good example, when talking about "realistic" RPG... how many times do you get into combat IRL... well, unless you are soldier or policeman or maybe mobster, there is chance, that you will never see combat during entire life... at least in first world countries. What about job related problems and relationship related problems instead of fighting in "realistic" RPGs
You ARE the enemy. You are not from "our ranks". You never were. You and the filth that are like you have never had any sincere interest in doing right by this hobby. You\'re here to aggrandize your own undeserved egos, and you don\'t give a fuck if you destroy gaming to do it.
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gleichman

#78
September 30, 2008, 12:34:12 PM
Quote from: Fritzs;253054What about job related problems and relationship related problems instead of fighting in "realistic" RPGs

First, I'd like to point out that (counter to the Forge), I don't consider the mere presence of a sub-system in a full featured rpgs to be the determining factor in how often or under what conditions that sub-system comes into play.

Thus if one was doing a 'realistic' game of Patrolman- The Beat, the combat system may not be used at all- but only exists because it could.

Beyond that, the advice above applies equally to anything one attempts to model in an rpg. I only focus on combat because that's my interest.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Fritzs

#79
September 30, 2008, 12:44:44 PM
Quote from: gleichmanFirst, I'd like to point out that (counter to the Forge), I don't consider the mere presence of a sub-system in a full featured rpgs to be the determining factor in how often or under what conditions that sub-system comes into play.

That's what I call "waste of paper", I woul also like to point out, that many trad RPGs lack some subsystems, for example how often you see subsystem for stock exchange...?

Quote from: gleichmanBeyond that, the advice above applies equally to anything one attempts to model in an rpg. I only focus on combat because that's my interest.

Then I would not call it "realistic" RPG, but "RPG with realistic combat"...
You ARE the enemy. You are not from "our ranks". You never were. You and the filth that are like you have never had any sincere interest in doing right by this hobby. You\'re here to aggrandize your own undeserved egos, and you don\'t give a fuck if you destroy gaming to do it.
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Engine

#80
September 30, 2008, 01:40:24 PM
Quote from: Seanchai;253038...reality is wacky and unexpected.
What do you mean by this? How is verisimilitude - giving the appearance of reality - less wacky than actual reality? It seems to me as if what one thinks is real differs from what's real, the problem is one's misunderstanding of what's real.
When you\'re a bankrupt ideology pursuing a bankrupt strategy, the only move you\'ve got is the dick one.

gleichman

#81
September 30, 2008, 02:41:38 PM
Quote from: Fritzs;253064That's what I call "waste of paper", I woul also like to point out, that many trad RPGs lack some subsystems, for example how often you see subsystem for stock exchange...?

I see many "wastes of paper" that turn out to be very useful indeed when they are after months of play called into use. This includes stock exchange rules published as part of the old Star Trek rpg.


Quote from: Fritzs;253064Then I would not call it "realistic" RPG, but "RPG with realistic combat"...

There is no requirement for Realism that would include those things not appearing in play anymore than realistic crash testing for automobiles include requirements for realistic testing against anti-tank weapons.

Thus I would assume that people would pick and judge systems to their own needs without tossing rather lame sideswipes at the choices of others.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Fritzs

#82
September 30, 2008, 04:43:36 PM
Quote from: gleichmanThis includes stock exchange rules published as part of the old Star Trek rpg.

Stock exchange... in Star Trek?! WTF, isn't Star Trek commie setting...?
You ARE the enemy. You are not from "our ranks". You never were. You and the filth that are like you have never had any sincere interest in doing right by this hobby. You\'re here to aggrandize your own undeserved egos, and you don\'t give a fuck if you destroy gaming to do it.
-RPGPundit, ranting about my awesome self

Xanther

#83
September 30, 2008, 09:45:46 PM
Quote from: gleichman;253003...
Let's start with a very abstract combat resolution system.


System 1: Combat Strengths are compared with one's opponent and a d100 rolled to determine the final results. It's range of outcomes are rather complete- based upon real world outcomes. Sure it has it's problems as the real percentages aren't truly nailed down by real world data- but the attempt was made and it's closer to being 'realistic than not.

But it is very abstract. A single die roll giving the final outcome per character.


To follow your original post as well...real world data does exist on just the ROO you seek at least with respect to the modern age.  Reems of data poured over and modeled many times.  Such data at least once was the grist of the more "simulation" based war games.   Depuy's "Understanding War" is an accesible starting point for finding this information.


Personally, I live VoO (versimilitude of outcome) with just enough detail in the mechanics to make me feel like have a variety of options and can exercise some tactics.  The kind of versimilitude I'm looking for depends on genre for me.
 

gleichman

#84
September 30, 2008, 10:20:10 PM
Quote from: Xanther;253322To follow your original post as well...real world data does exist on just the ROO you seek at least with respect to the modern age.  Reems of data poured over and modeled many times.  Such data at least once was the grist of the more "simulation" based war games.   Depuy's "Understanding War" is an accesible starting point for finding this information.

I've spent a good deal of time researching this specific matter, and while there is some wonderful data indicating some nice trends- it breaks down for individual cases (which rpgs are designed around) and is often disputed.

I do make use of the most likely trends and other good information- one can check out my website under HERO System House Rules- real world conversions.

Even so, this does not meet Engine's original realism requirements. It's only 'better realism'.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

gleichman

#85
September 30, 2008, 10:31:53 PM
Quote from: Fritzs;253203Stock exchange... in Star Trek?! WTF, isn't Star Trek commie setting...?

Trader Captains and Merchant Princes, 1st Ed. (supplement, 1983)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_RPG_(FASA)#Supplements

The old show wasn't the commie heaven the later series were.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Vaecrius

#86
October 01, 2008, 05:24:24 AM
Quote from: Engine;252994"You fire your weapon at the guard. You turn into a daisy. From the future."
I have played games like this.

They are some of my fondest roleplaying memories, ever.


Quote from: Koltar;252878How about instead of "realism" how about going with PLAUSIBLE.
This. Trying to model an absolute Reality is doomed to failure given no one even has enough facts to discern the chances of a particular outcome for a particular situation in Real Life (a situation which hasn't actually happened in Real Life - a contradiction?) and distill a general solution for such situations into a manually-operated dice mechanic.


I think die rolls only help model reality inasmuch as the randomness represents all those factors that weren't already specified by the players before resolution. By that logic, the finer-grained a system is, to preserve verisimilitude the smaller the range and/or the tighter the bell curve of the resolving roll ought to be.

Engine

#87
October 01, 2008, 08:24:58 AM
Quote from: gleichman;253331Even so, this does not meet Engine's original realism requirements. It's only 'better realism'.
And what were my original realism requirements? You made a comment earlier about them that I didn't recall having made, and I'm concerned I may have said something I later forgot, a not-uncommon occurrence. Could you refresh my memory with a link?
When you\'re a bankrupt ideology pursuing a bankrupt strategy, the only move you\'ve got is the dick one.

Koltar

#88
October 01, 2008, 09:52:32 AM
Quote from: gleichman;253334Trader Captains and Merchant Princes, 1st Ed. (supplement, 1983)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_RPG_(FASA)#Supplements

The old show wasn't the commie heaven the later series were.

Yes, while true - that Stock Exchange section was the most useless part of that book.

 That fictional magazine that was made "as if published in the TREK Universe" was actually the most useful thing in there for giving flavor to the universe.

Back in the mid 80s to mid 90s , I rean deveral ST campaigns using the FASA rules. I remember both the good and the bad. Hell, we had special cardboard rulers constructed just to figure out Warp Speed travel times for stories set in the Triangle.


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gleichman

#89
October 01, 2008, 09:55:31 AM
Quote from: Engine;253423And what were my original realism requirements? You made a comment earlier about them that I didn't recall having made, and I'm concerned I may have said something I later forgot, a not-uncommon occurrence. Could you refresh my memory with a link?

It's provided in a previous post in this thread.

Between me paging back to find and you, I choose you :)
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.
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