I was reading over the Moldvay rules last night and wondering why anyone would have EVER chosen to be a MU if they had gotten this set.

Here are my thoughts.... Many of the original adventures were dungeon crawls, correct?  If I am a MU and I am limited to no armor and only a 1d4 dagger for protection, do I really believe that I would head into a dungeon just waiting to use my one Magic Missle.

Lets assume you run into a 4 hp bad guy.  You blow your load with your one spell, and roll a 1, doing 2 hp to that baddie.  Assuming you have a decent con (probably not if you picked MU because the one good stat you rolled was INT), you might have 5 or 6 HP.

Now granted, it may have been feasible to explore a few rooms of the dungeon, go back to town, rest, and get back to the dungeon for a few more rooms...

So...for those of you who had the Basic box set and played a MU....  What made you do it?  (and be careful if you plan to use "power at higher levels")
If you had only the Basic Set, you would have 3 spells tops!

You take better spells. Let's be honest. A first level mage with SLEEP, is a very potent ally against groups of low level enemies. Sure at higher levels you fight things you'd rather see perforated with the damaging Magic Missile.

Until then then the magic user stands in the back as you fight through two-three goblins at a time. But when you face four? five? You see where I'm going.

He makes larger fights easier to manage.

Plus it will be worth it in a few levels when he can throw out things like lightning bolt, or fireball.

I actually began playing with the Holmes Edition, but the same principles apply. Those of us who chose to play magic users did so because, yes, we expected greater power at higher levels. We knew that the game didn't just stop at the point the basic set led up to; we had yet to see AD&D, or even the Moldvay Edition, but we were confident that more powerful spells were in store. Even to our uninitiated senses, we knew that wasn't all there was to the game.

Because it was the first step toward playing a second-level magic-user.

Quote from: timrichter9;252366So...for those of you who had the Basic box set and played a MU....  What made you do it?  (and be careful if you plan to use "power at higher levels")
If you had only the Basic Set, you would have 3 spells tops!

Ignorance.  The Magic User was the sucker's choice in the original versions of the game.  At first level the only thing you could really do was pick Sleep as your spell and hope for the best.  Magic Missile was the attractive option, but was really only a trap to make your character even more useless.

MUs were avoided, especially because the Elf was much a much more attractive option because they were competent.  A first level magic user gained a reputation as a one shot magic item, because that's exactly how parties treated them.

Even in AD&D there was seldom a reason for a single classed magic user.   Although AD&D gave the "Dart Trick" where a mage could carry lots of darts and offer some missile utility to the party.

Largely though, low level single classed magic users (under 4th level) are near useless in the original versions of D&D and AD&D.  It's really only in 4e that they've gained any competency or value to a party at all.

Quote from: Silverlion;252369You take better spells. Let's be honest. A first level mage with SLEEP, is a very potent ally against groups of low level enemies. Sure at higher levels you fight things you'd rather see perforated with the damaging Magic Missile.

Until then then the magic user stands in the back as you fight through two-three goblins at a time. But when you face four? five? You see where I'm going

I get it, but my concern still holds.  Say I prepare Sleep twice as a second level MU.  At most, I help the party magically twice and then I am essentially "traveling" with the party.  I probably help with the mental challenges (riddles, the room with the chess floor, etc...), but I would stay out of combat most of the time, no??  I can only deal 1D4 and I usually have 3-5 HP at 1st level.

Was that really fun??  Someone sell me on it....

Quote from: timrichter9;252381I get it, but my concern still holds.  Say I prepare Sleep twice as a second level MU.  At most, I help the party magically twice and then I am essentially "traveling" with the party.  I probably help with the mental challenges (riddles, the room with the chess floor, etc...), but I would stay out of combat most of the time, no??  I can only deal 1D4 and I usually have 3-5 HP at 1st level.

Was that really fun??  Someone sell me on it....

Looking back on it, it really is a hard sell. We just toughed it out. Other players generally jumped to the defense of the M-U cheerfully after they shot their load, because everyone was aware that a high level M-U would be an invaluable asset, more than making up for their low level helplessness.

Quote from: timrichter9;252381I get it, but my concern still holds.  Say I prepare Sleep twice as a second level MU.  At most, I help the party magically twice and then I am essentially "traveling" with the party.  I probably help with the mental challenges (riddles, the room with the chess floor, etc...), but I would stay out of combat most of the time, no??  I can only deal 1D4 and I usually have 3-5 HP at 1st level.

Was that really fun??  Someone sell me on it....

It was fun for a lot of people. After all, in many campaigns there were lots of things to do outside of standup fights. Magic-Users usually had a high intelligence and so spoke more languages than the average person. They also could appear threatening dressed the part with a staff of wood. After all, the party's opponents would not know the mage had used his only spell. With a bit of trickery, he could even appear to cast spells when he really wasn't.  A low level mage was a challenge to play, but the rewards were great if you could keep him alive. Some people enjoy that type of challenge and that's the player a magic-user is for.

Randall's post is a good one. A starting MU can communicate with enemies, bluff, figure things out, read arcane inscriptions, etc. etc. It's a challenge, but it has a big reward at the end, because your character will be the most powerful if you ever get to the higher levels. (You often don't, but that makes it all the more special if you ever do.)

You also have to remember that the focus on the game was more to do with exploration and grabbing treasure than it was killing stuff. Anyone can explore and grab treasure; it's nothing to do with how many hp you have.

If I recall, the old sleep spell did 4d4 hd without save.  Taking out 10 goblins at once is huge at 1st.  After that, there's a lot of standing around.  But you can throw daggers quite often - your base attack is as good as a fighter's, though 1d4 and short range.  

As I recall, at 12 years old, we weren't big min-maxers.  You had the chance to be a WIZARD.  So you took your lumps.

Quote from: Nicephorus;252395If I recall, the old sleep spell did 4d4 hd without save.  Taking out 10 goblins at once is huge at 1st.  After that, there's a lot of standing around.  But you can throw daggers quite often - your base attack is as good as a fighter's, though 1d4 and short range.  

As I recall, at 12 years old, we weren't big min-maxers.  You had the chance to be a WIZARD.  So you took your lumps.

That too. Never underestimate the value of being a guy with a big flowing white beard and a tall conical hat with stars and moons painted on it.

Thanks for all the responses.  I appreciate all the interest/help.
I am going to see if I can get my home group to roll up some
characters and head for the Keep (on the Borderlands)

I think MU's usually ended up having more money than other characters since there wasn't much that they could spend their money on.

Wasn't it par for the course for MU's hire a bunch of retainers?  It wasn't just the MU...it was the MU with as many retainers as he could hire with all that money he had.

M-Us having more money for gear and retainers is a good one.

The other thing is, at low level, a jaunt into the dungeon might only be a couple of hours' game time, during which you'd have the hp and resources to survive a mere handful of encounters.  The Magic-User might only be good for one or two, but then again, so were most of the rest of the party.  Fighter would be low on hp from doing fighty stuff, cleric the same and also out of spells from doing cleric-y stuff (if he was at least 2nd level!), etc.

And Magic Missile is a bad first spell.  Charm Person, or Sleep, like others have said, were favored with the folks I played with.

There's the obvious opportunity to grow into one of the more powerful PCs.  Also, I'd never pick magic missile as my spell -- I'd pick sleep or charm person.  The utility and relative power of sleep is obvious.  I think charm person is often overlooked, but I use it *before* entering the dungeon, to assist in recruiting some bodyguards for my PC.  If I stay out of melee (behind my bodyguards) my low hit points and AC don't matter as much.  And don't forget that even a low level magic user can use certain magic items (e.g. wands and scrolls) that are denied to other classes.

Also, I confess that I also enjoy playing a low level magic user for the sheer challenge.  I usually DM, but when I play, a magic user is my favorite kind of PC to run -- low level or not.