Quote from: KrakaJak;220904That's the biggest problem, is the focus on the combat encounter. The worst part of that focus is combat is shitty. It's long, drawn out and frustrating. First level combats now take 30 minutes or more, there's little room for improvisation, most character abilities are very similar, and there is not much actual danger.

Yep, with hit points having increased 100-200% from 3e, fights can take a long time even at first level.  There are no decisive moves to make.  Your only move is to try to optimize your damage per round (ala dps in wow).

Quote from: KrakaJak;220904That's the biggest problem, is the focus on the combat encounter. The worst part of that focus is combat is shitty. It's long, drawn out and frustrating. First level combats now take 30 minutes or more, there's little room for improvisation, most character abilities are very similar, and there is not much actual danger.

You are hitting around the problem I'm having with Powers in 4E. They give the illusion of choice in combat, but they are actually steering players towards a handfull of very similar pregenerated maneuvers. The ability for a player to improvise an attack based on the combat situation and have the DM adjucate the results has greatly diminished.

Every time someone makes a wow comparison I kept thinking of wow characters jumping and tumbling and moving around... then I see wow combat... and it is very much all of 'stand toe to toe and bash each other to bits'.

This isn't very much like a lot of the 4e combats I've had so far.

And as far as no real danger... all the adventures I've seen played so far from WotC have either had more tpks than not or I can see just where they are going to happen.

Combat being shitty... OK, sure, in your opinion... not my in my opinion.

The nature of WOW combat depends on if you're talking about PVE or PVP.  Because WOW has no collision detection between mobile objects, all sorts of fuckwittery goes on because the rules of the system allow for it.  In PVE, combat is mostly static due to constraints programmed into the system by the developers; what mobility exists is there usually as a gimmick to complicate a boss fight.  In PVP combat is very mobile, and the use of snares (and other crowd control measures) is a huge part of the PVP game.  WOW PVP has lots of leaping, pixel-bitching, min/maxing and such to the point where characters that have neither crowd control nor instant-cast abilities get utterly fucked in the ass.  (e.g. Paladin healers in Arena combat, even in the 5v5 format)

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;220991The nature of WOW combat depends on if you're talking about PVE or PVP.  Because WOW has no collision detection between mobile objects, all sorts of fuckwittery goes on because the rules of the system allow for it.  In PVE, combat is mostly static due to constraints programmed into the system by the developers; what mobility exists is there usually as a gimmick to complicate a boss fight.  In PVP combat is very mobile, and the use of snares (and other crowd control measures) is a huge part of the PVP game.  WOW PVP has lots of leaping, pixel-bitching, min/maxing and such to the point where characters that have neither crowd control nor instant-cast abilities get utterly fucked in the ass.  (e.g. Paladin healers in Arena combat, even in the 5v5 format)

There's an exception to every rule of course.  Rogues are quite mobile in both modes of play, at least when played optimally.  Of course, while you do move about plenty in combat, it's still the same bloody moves over and over again each time.  Backstab, enemy turns to face, gouge to stun, run around behind him, backstab, gouge, backstab, gouge, until dead.  At least for regular mobs.  For bosses it again becomes entirely static, and it's pretty much just backstab, backstab, backstab.

Which is part of the whole point of the comparison.  The powers as designed are no different from the ones in WoW, just buttons you push to do damage.

Quote from: J Arcane;220995There's an exception to every rule of course.  Rogues are quite mobile in both modes of play, at least when played optimally.  Of course, while you do move about plenty in combat, it's still the same bloody moves over and over again each time.  Backstab, enemy turns to face, gouge to stun, run around behind him, backstab, gouge, backstab, gouge, until dead.  At least for regular mobs.  For bosses it again becomes entirely static, and it's pretty much just backstab, backstab, backstab.

This is pretty much the case, to the point where there are cookie-cutter Talent specs for each class depending on PVE/PVP and role therein, and there are sites such as Elitist Jerks and Maintankadin that focus on doing all of the character/group/raid optimization math-wankery that leads to revised standard practices as well as boss strategies and everything else that those not amongst the hardcore minority rely upon in getting content done in a timely fashion.  (This is a good example of the 80/20 Rule as applied to MMO games.)  You know your role, you know your ability rotation, gear up to fit that role, use macros to squeeze out faster performance, etc. but it all goes down to doing damage or stopping someone else from doing damage (Crowd Control).

QuoteWhich is part of the whole point of the comparison.  The powers as designed are no different from the ones in WoW, just buttons you push to do damage.

To the point where you might as well post short notes at the FLGS that say "Dwarf Fighter 10 LFG.  PST to (contact location)".

I watched some of the PVP stuff on youtube.

still it's ironic that WOW needs to be a social thing with/against people (pvp) to get 4e compared to it.

Since my arguments were criticised for not providing enough concrete examples, I spent the last evening comparing different editions for evidence of The Tyranny of Fun. Here are the results without further comment - you can draw your own conclusions. :pundit:

[/SIZE]

[/SIZE]

#1: The Command spell through the editions

OD&D and Basic: not included

1e (note Gygaxian verbiage )
This spell enables the cleric to issue a command of a single word. The command must be uttered in a language which the spell recipient is able to understand. The individual will obey to the best of his/her/its ability only so long as the command is absolutely clear and unequivocal, i.e. "Suicide!" could be a noun, so the creature would ignore the command. A command to "Die!" would cause the recipient to fall in a faint or cataleptic state for 1 round, but thereafter the creature would be alive and well. Typical command words are: back, halt, flee, run, stop, fall, fly, go, leave, surrender, sleep, rest, etc. Undead are not affected by a command. Creatures with an intelligence of 13 or more, and creatures with 6 or more hit dice (or experience levels) are entitled to a saving throw versus magic. (Creatures with 13 or higher intelligence and 6 hit dice/levels do not get 2 saving throws!)

3e
The character gives the subject a one-word command, which she obeys to the best of her ability. A very reasonable command causes the subject to suffer a penalty on the saving throw (from –1 to –4, at the DM's discretion). Typical commands are "Flee," "Die" (which causes the subject to feign death), "Halt," "Run," "Stop," "Fall," "Go," "Leave," "Surrender," and "Rest." (A command of "Suicide" fails because "suicide" is generally used as a noun, not as a command.)

3.5e (note the subtle change)
You give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options.
Approach: On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.
Drop: On its turn, the subject drops whatever it is holding. It can't pick up any dropped item until its next turn.
Fall: On its turn, the subject falls to the ground and remains prone for 1 round. It may act normally while prone but takes any appropriate penalties.
Flee: On its turn, the subject moves away from you as quickly as possible for 1 round. It may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.
Halt: The subject stands in place for 1 round. It may not take any actions but is not considered helpless.
If the subject can't carry out your command on its next turn, the spell automatically fails.

4e
You utter a single word to your foe, a word that demands obedience. You can choose to drive the foe back, order it closer, or cause the foe to throw itself to the ground. Hit: The target is dazed until the end of your next turn. In addition, you can choose to knock the target prone or
slide the target a number of squares equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier

[/SIZE]

#2: List of non-encounter spells by edition, LVL 1-3 [/b]
(Does not include buffs, curative and combat spells, but may include some which have a good non-combat use)

1st level:
OD&D (Men & Magic and Greyhawk):
Cleric: Purify Food and Water, Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Light (4/6)
M-U: Detect Magic, Hold Portal, Read Magic, Read Languages, Light, Charm Person, Ventriloquism (7/11)

AD&D 1st edition
Cleric: Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Evil, Light, Purify Food and Water, Resist Cold (7/12)
M-U: Affect Normal Fires, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Erase, Feather Fall, Find Familiar, Friends, Hold Portal, Identify, Jump, Light, Mending, Message, Nystul's Magical Aura, Push, Read Magic, Spider Climb, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Ventriloquism, Write (23/30)

D&D 3.5 (includes 0-level spells, but not Clerical domain spells)
Cleric: Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Guidance, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic, Bless Water, Comprehend Languages, Curse Water, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Detect Undead, Hide from Undead, Obscuring Mist, Summon Monster I. (16/37)
Wizard: Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Dancing Lights, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Alarm, Hold Portal, Grease, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Summon Monster I, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Undead, Identify, Charm Person, Floating Disk, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Animate Rope, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump (34/58)

D&D 4e (includes class abilities and available rituals)
Cleric: Gentle Repose (1/13)
Wizard: Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Magic Mouth, Make Whole, Secret Page, Silence, Tenser's Floating Disk (9/23)

2nd level:
OD&D
Cleric: Find Traps, Speak with Animals, Silence 15' r. (3/6)
M-U: Detect Invisible, Levitate, Phantasmal Forces, Locate Object, Invisibility, Wizard Lock, Detect Evil, ESP, Continual Light, Knock, Magic Mouth (11/16)

AD&D 1st edition
Cleric: Augury, Detect Charm, Find Traps, Know Alignment, Silence 15' r., Speak With Animals (6/12)
M-U: Audible Glamer, Continual Light, Darkness 15' r., Detect Evil, Detect Invisibility, ESP, Fool's Gold, Forget, Invisibility, Knock, Leomund's Trap, Levitate, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Shatter, Wizard Lock (16/24)

D&D 3.5
Cleric: Augury, Consecrate, Darkness, Desecrate, Enthrall, Find Traps, Gentle Repose, Make Whole, Shatter, Silence, Summon Monster II., Undetectable Alignment, Zone of Truth (13/32)
M-U: Arcane Lock, Obscure Object, Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, See Invisibility, Continual Flame, Darkness, Gust of Wind, Shatter, Invisibility, Magic Mouth, Minor Image, Misdirection, Phantom Trap, Command Undead, Alter Self, Darkvision, Knock, Levitate, Spider Climb, Whispering Wind (24/50)

D&D 4e
Cleric: (0/5)
M-U: Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Eye of Alarm (4/6)

3rd level:
OD&D
Cleric: Locate Object, Continual Light, Speak With dead (3/6)
M-U: Fly, Dispell Magic [sic], Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, Invisibility 10' r., Infravision, Water Breathing, Explosive Runes, Suggestion, Monster Summoning I. (9/18)

AD&D 1st edition
Cleric: Animate Dead, Continual Light, Create Food & Water, Dispel Magic, Feign Death, Glyph of Warding, Locate Object, Speak With Dead (8/12)
M-U: Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Feign Death, Fly, Gust of Wind, Infravision, Invisibility 10' r., Leomund's Tiny Hut, Monster Summoning I., Phantasmal Force, Suggestion, Tongues, Water Breathing (15/24)

D&D 3.5
Cleric: Animate Dead, Continual Flame, Create Food and Water, Daylight, Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Glyph of Warding, Helping Hand, Invisibility Purge, Locate Object, Meld into Stone, Obscure Object, Speak with Dead, Stone Shape, Summon Monster III, Water Breathing, Water Walk, Wind Wall (18/31)
M-U: Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Sepia Snake Sigil, Summon Monster III, Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Tongues, Suggestion, Daylight, Tiny Hut, Wind Wall, Illusory Script, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image, Gentle Repose, Fly, Gaseous Form, Secret Page, Shrink Item, Water Breathing (22/41)

D&D 4e
Cleric: (0/4)
M-U: Detect Secret Doors(1/5)

Percentages by level (Cleric/M-U):
1st
OD&D: 67% / 64%
1e: 58% / 77%
3.5e: 43% / 59%
4e: 8% / 39%

2nd
OD&D: 50% / 69%
1e: 50% / 67%
3.5e: 41% / 48%
4e: 0 % / 67%

3rd
OD&D: 50% / 50%
1e: 67% / 63%
3.5e: 58% / 54%
4e: 0% / 20%

All 1-3 LVL spells
OD&D: 37/63 (59%)
1e: 75/112 (67%)
3.5e: 127/249 (51%)
4e: 15/56 (27%)

[/SIZE]

#3: Complete list of non-encounter/buff related magic items found in the 4e PHB[/b]
(List does not take into account applicable level limits which may restrict access)
Boots of Spider Climbing
Ioun Stone of True Sight
Ring of Flight
Ring of Invisibility
Ring of True Seeing
Bag of Holding
Dust of Appearance
Everlasting Provisions
Feather Boat
Flying Carpet
Handy Haversack
Portable Hole
Rope of Climbing
Sending Stones
(14 total - that's all, folks! :bunny: )

Quote from: dar;220999I watched some of the PVP stuff on youtube.

still it's ironic that WOW needs to be a social thing with/against people (pvp) to get 4e compared to it.

Why?

Quote from: KrakaJak;220341No, it set out to be a successor RPG to the granddaddy of RPGs. It says so right in the name, Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Roleplaying Game. Are you really that much of a fucking Shill that you think they set out to make D&D 4e a tactical strategy game?

Fucking Shill?  Hmm.  If I see you praising any game you enjoy, I'll remember to return the comment.

I have followed 4e's development via ENworld since it was first announced.  I am a big fan of game design discussions and author's blogs and the designers repeatedly stated that "4e combat = exciting 3D strategy" was a core design goal.   And its blindingly obvious.   The difference between the 4e RPG rules and DDM rules are minimal and anyone who plays one game will easily jump to the other.  Don't believe me?  You can download the DDM rules for free.

It's okay if you don't like 4e or don't want to play it or don't want to read it, but it insanely moronic to rave how you hate something without playing the actual game with an open mind.  BTW, welcome to the new dominant RPG design over the entire industry for the next 5 years...until 4.5 comes out.

I have to laugh at all these comments about 4e taking away player's creative choices in combat.   Cut the shit people.   I have been a DM for 30 years and I have run convention games for 25 years with probably a 1000 different players.   After all this time, I still have to encourage the players to describe their actions with some flair instead of yet another "I attack" or "I cast X spell."  I lead by example and I always have a few holdouts every con.  This utterly uncreative approach to combat actions IS the standard way most people game.   4e is a freaking smorgasbord of new actions for them.

BTW, the main reason I enjoy 4e is because the 3D tactical skirmish boardgame aspect is terrific fun.   I have a shelf full of RPGs that do an amazing job of non-minis RPG storytelling that we can play from the couch without any maps, boards or figs.    That's what OD&D and Warhammer and Rifts and Cthulhu are for!

Quote from: Spinachcat;221019I have to laugh at all these comments about 4e taking away player's creative choices in combat.   Cut the shit people.  

 

4e is a freaking smorgasbord of new actions for them.

New actions that have been thought up by the game designers and not the players during the game.

Quote from: jeff37923;221027New actions that have been thought up by the game designers and not the players during the game.

There's actually an entire section in the DMG on quickly arbitrating tactical options the PCs take that aren't covered by the RAW, including a rough system to help you eyeball what the DCs should be (the same system used for determining the DCs of skill challenges, actually).

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;221030There's actually an entire section in the DMG on quickly arbitrating tactical options the PCs take that aren't covered by the RAW, including a rough system to help you eyeball what the DCs should be (the same system used for determining the DCs of skill challenges, actually).

So why does 4E have Powers?

EDIT: A little clarification. The vast majority of Powers are pre-programmed combat maneuvers complete with fluff text "special effects" which are the tabletop game equivalent of hitting a game controller's button to launch a special move in a computer game.

So, if there is a section in the DMG on how to arbitrate a tactical option in combat, then why have the Powers which allow the player to accomplish the similar things without the burden of thinking it up for themselves?

Quote from: Spinachcat;221019I have followed 4e's development...[huge snip]

I could have riposted that post sentence by sentence but I have better things to do with by time.

I would just like to say that I am glad a self-confessed 4ed fan admits both to WotC money-grabbing nature and the fact they designed a 3d minis strategy game as their latest product.

Quote from: jeff37923;220984The ability for a player to improvise an attack based on the combat situation and have the DM adjucate the results has greatly diminished.

Insofar as the 4E DMG contains specific advice, enocuragement and examples for adjudicating character actions ooutside of their power list (the example giving being a character who swings from a chandalier to kick a monster into a burning brazier) and AFAIK the 3E DMG contains no such advice, I'm not seeing how 4E is worse at this than the previous edition.