Sweet research. Thanks for doing this!

Quote from: mhensley;220307You know, I first posted my initial findings a week ago on enworld and there I had the 4e fighter fight the non-minion goblins.  The 4e supporters there complained that I should have used minions as it made the 4e look weak in comparison to the 3e one.  It seems that I can't win with this.

Hehe.  I can't be held responsible for the weirdos on enworld

I guess you should provide *both*, and let the reader decide their relevance.

Quote from: dar;220314http://grubbstreet.blogspot.com/2008/06/green-dragon.html

Also I've seen GM's have trouble being tough enough with the dragons and getting into trouble because of underestimating the PC's and nerfing the dragon.

Edit: nerfing untentially in many cases as well.

We ran into this sort of problem in our recent game.  The GM had plotted out a fight with some sort of jumping spiders.  He'd done it, I guess, by the book and setup 3 of them for us to fight.  However, as the fight opened, he spontaneously decided the spiders would be too tough, and had one run away so we only had to fight two.

It was a reasonable fight, as most of us used up our dailies.  However, it was not truly challenging.  None of us were bloodied (as I recall), and at no point was I concerned we'd lose.  Three spiders would have rocked.

(I keep bugging the GM to make things more challenging.  However, I fear he may single my character out in exercising this advice.)

Quote from: Spike;220291The durability of the 1st level fighter is ofset by the durability of 1st level monsters, with minions providing bulk and skirmisher elements in essence. By taking a below scale minion, just because it matches up with earlier edition equivilents does not mean it is scaled appropriately for the challenge you've set.

See, herein lies the issue. Because, IIRC, there were no "minion" goblins in earlier editions - ok, maybe kobolds, but that's a different issue.

But that's why I asked the question about frequency and expectation. If a 1st level fighter is likely to fight, when running into a pack of goblins, a bunch of minions, then using them for comparison is logical. After all, a "regular" goblin is what you faced in 1e when you ran into a group.

And the point of the exercise, or at least one of the things that was discussed early on this site about 4e and to which this speaks, was the scaling issue. Again, the question about what is the expectation of encounter/likelihood of meeting minions, comes up again.

The way I sees it, if that 1st level fighter in 4e is likely to meet minions, just like the 3e fighter was expected to meet 1/3 CR goblin, or the 1e fighter is expected to meet ..well..just goblins, then the scaling seems to be not quite linear. To be clear, that doesn't make it good or bad; people will have different preferences.

Quote from: Spike;220291In essense, you could get nearly the same results by porting an older edition goblin into 4th edition D&D, and could similarly skew the results by porting the 4E fighter (or his hit points, anyway) directly into an older edition challenge.

What about porting a 4e goblin minion to 1e; or perhaps a 4e 1st level goblin to 1e? I'm honestly asking. Is it even possible?

I don't know if you're right or not; though I have my personal read/opinion. It all depends on how the various editions' goblins match up, or fighters do. The problem I see is that it will be very difficult to find agreement on holding one side the equation or the other constant.

Quote from: James J Skach;220336What about porting a 4e goblin minion to 1e; or perhaps a 4e 1st level goblin to 1e? I'm honestly asking. Is it even possible?

Wouldn't that just be a Goblin that has less hit points than the minimum the Fighter could deal out with a successful hit?  If the Fighter gets +3 to damage from Strength, then any Goblin with 4 or less hit points is the same as a minion.

Quote from: mhensley;220312Actually, the use of minions is not the main reason for the big jump in power.  The biggest reasons are the huge increase in hit points and a much better chance of landing a hit in combat.  The 3e fighter has an attack bonus of +5.  The 4e fighter though has an attack bonus of +10 with his at will power of Sure Strike.

A fighter won't get his Strength bonus to damage on Sure Strike.  Not very relevant if you're using a Minion, but extremely relevant otherwise.

-O

Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;220324Hehe.  I can't be held responsible for the weirdos on enworld

I guess you should provide *both*, and let the reader decide their relevance.

Here is the original thread I posted on enworld with the numbers I got from working out the averages on a spreadsheet.  The 4e fighter there fights non-minions.  Note that the numbers are a bit different for everyone as I was not using the simulator program at that point which I consider to be much more accurate.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=232244

Quote from: James J Skach;220336What about porting a 4e goblin minion to 1e; or perhaps a 4e 1st level goblin to 1e? I'm honestly asking. Is it even possible?

It's entirely doable if you don't worry about their special powers which didn't figure into this anyway.  The 4e goblin minion is much more dangerous than a 1e goblin due to his higher attack bonus and AC.  The extra couple of hit points (on average) that the AD&D one has isn't much of a factor.

AD&D Goblin
AC- 14
HP- 1d8-1
Attack Bonus- +1
Damage- 1d6

4e Goblin Minion
AC- 16
HP- 1
Attack Bonus- +5
Damage- 4

Quote from: obryn;220365A fighter won't get his Strength bonus to damage on Sure Strike.  Not very relevant if you're using a Minion, but extremely relevant otherwise.

-O

True.  He used Sure Strike every round because that was the optimum attack against minions lined up like this.

I don't why everyone is getting worked up over the 4e numbers.  The figure I found most troubling was the jump from 1st to 2nd edition.  The weapon specialization rules introduced in UA were an abomination.  Damn that cheesy, munchkin-lover Gygax.  

Another question about the methodolgy used- did you allow the 4e fighter to use his healing surge?  Unlike any of his "ancestors" in earlier editions, he has the capability to heal himself without any potion or spell, so that would need to be taken into account.

Quote from: mhensley;220410It's entirely doable if you don't worry about their special powers which didn't figure into this anyway.  The 4e goblin minion is much more dangerous than a 1e goblin due to his higher attack bonus and AC.  The extra couple of hit points (on average) that the AD&D one has isn't much of a factor.

AD&D Goblin
AC- 14
HP- 1d8-1
Attack Bonus- +1
Damage- 1d6

4e Goblin Minion
AC- 16
HP- 1
Attack Bonus- +5
Damage- 4

Sp, if I understand this correctly (and trust me when I tell you that it's certainly possible I'm not!), the differences are:

• 4e goblin minion has a higher AC; the minion is harder to hit by 10%.
• 4e goblin minion has less hit points; on average, it's 3.5 hp less (1d8-1=4.5 average hp for AD&D Goblin, 1 HP for 4e minion).
• 4e goblin minion has a higher attack bonus; it has a 20% higher chance of hitting.
• 4e goblin minion, on average, will do more damage; 1d6 result in 3.5 hp average damage, versus 4 - so a difference of .5 hit points.

Is that about correct?

Given that the average damage of a long sword (1d8; therefore, 4.5) is well within the difference, I'm not sure that I'm seeing the huge gap that people are pointing out. Particularly given the offsetting issues of being harder to hit, hitting more easily, and doing a bit more damage, the comparison seems pretty good.

Now, some people liek to use the IANAL (I am not a lawyer), so I will add the caveat that IANAS; I am not a statistician; So I'll be more than grateful to have someone pull those numbers apart and show me what I'm missing.

Wow! Very nice work. Thank you VERY much!

Thanks for providing that link back to enworld.

For me it was the use of minions instead of non minion goblins. Especially single minions.

It's nice to see more of the information.

Quote from: James J Skach;220449Sp, if I understand this correctly (and trust me when I tell you that it's certainly possible I'm not!), the differences are:

• 4e goblin minion has less hit points; on average, it's 3.5 hp less (1d8-1=4.5 average hp for AD&D Goblin, 1 HP for 4e minion).

Is that about correct?

Given that the average damage of a long sword (1d8; therefore, 4.5) is well within the difference, I'm not sure that I'm seeing the huge gap that people are pointing out.

Actually, you got the hit points wrong.

The average of 1d8 is 4.5.  Finding the average of 1d8-1 is trickier, since you don't subtract 1 if you roll a 1.  So the possible results are: 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.  That means the average is 3.625.  This means that the goblin minion has, on average, 2.625 hit point less than the average 1E goblin.

Which means that the average damage of the long sword more than exceeds the average difference in hit points.

I think the goblin minion is the perfect choice for this experiment, as the basic goblin or 1st level goblin warrior is essentially meant as a minion fighter.

Quote from: Jackalope;220556I think the goblin minion is the perfect choice for this experiment, as the basic goblin or 1st level goblin warrior is essentially meant as a minion fighter.

It's really not, though.

As I said on ENWorld, a 3e goblin is CR 1/3 - so an encounter for a party of 4 1st-level characters should have 3 of them.  1.33 characters per goblin.

A 4e goblin minion is worth 25 XP, and a standard encounter for a party of 4 1st-level characters is built off 400 XP.  Therefore, you need 16 goblin minions for an equivalent level of party challenge.  Or, 4 goblin minions per character.

This gives us a "goblin conversion ratio" of 5.33 4e goblin minions per 3e goblin.

-O