Middle Earth RPG

ColonelHardisson · April 27, 2008, 02:05:10 AM

Quote from: noismsPeople say it wasn't very Tolkien-esque but I don't see that. The art and writing was, I thought, very evocative of LOTR.

The art and (some) of the writing isn't what was cited as non-Tolkien-ish. It was the game mechanics themselves. The combat system especially, which was much more bloody and gruesome - and in some cases, the combat results were described in a flip, humorous manner - than any combat ever described in the books. Plus the magic just didn't seem to fit the setting - despite being set 1500 years or so before the time of the Hobbit and LotR, it was still the Third Age and magic wasn't very prevalent at all.

That said, many of the sourcebooks (though sometimes, as others have said, the writers came up with stuff that just had no relation to anything Tolkien wrote) were very good, and Angus McBride's covers were spot-on.

noisms · April 27, 2008, 03:48:20 AM

Quote from: AkrasiaI'm very, very confident that you are incorrect about this!

(However, feel free to provide some textual references to refute me! )

"...Men of a new sort that we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem." From somewhere in the middle of ROTK.

That's what I was referring to. Admittedly it's a bit of a stretch to jump from that to the Umli, but when I saw them in the MERP core rule book I immediately thought that was what they were - and I got the impression that this passage was the inspiration, somehow. I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that I'm wrong though.

Akrasia · April 27, 2008, 02:06:51 PM

Quote from: noisms... Admittedly it's a bit of a stretch to jump from that to the Umli, but when I saw them in the MERP core rule book I immediately thought that was what they were ...

I think that that is a bit of stretch, since that passage describes a tribe of Easterlings (who happened to have beards), whereas the Umli, as described in MERP, lived in the far north, and seem unlikely to have allied themselves with Sauron. The idea of 'half-dwarves' especially seems alien to Middle-earth.

I'm kind of surprised that this even being debated. I always thought that everyone who played MERP knew that the Umli were an ICE invention. I believe that ICE excluded them from their 'Middle-earth glossary' for this reason.
:cool:

Akrasia · April 27, 2008, 02:14:59 PM

Quote from: ColonelHardisson... The combat system especially, which was much more bloody and gruesome ...

I always thought that the combat system was quite appropriate. Middle-earth is a gritty place where combat is dangerous. An orc can kill even Isildur with a lucky shot.

Warthur · April 27, 2008, 04:32:22 PM

On the other hand, I believe that it is strongly implied that that orc's "lucky" shot was nothing to do with luck and everything to do with the Ring deciding that it was time to find a new wearer.

Akrasia · April 27, 2008, 05:00:21 PM

Quote from: WarthurOn the other hand, I believe that it is strongly implied that that orc's "lucky" shot was nothing to do with luck and everything to do with the Ring deciding that it was time to find a new wearer.

Well, it was only an example. Bard scoring a critical hit on Smaug is another.

My overall point is that I've always thought of Middle-earth as a place where combat is pretty harsh. Even the Fellowship worries about orcs and trolls as serious threats (in the books at least).

David Johansen · April 28, 2008, 12:28:29 AM

Bard had an arrow of dragon slaying with a right of blood vengance on it. The arrow had truely come from the forges of the king under the mountain into his hands for the fated purpose of striking Smaug dead.

noisms · April 28, 2008, 12:38:58 AM

Okay, another example: an orc chieftainin Moria manages to do over Aragorn and Boromir and stab Frodo with a spear before being dispatched. A single orc.

Akrasia is right - LOTR combat is harsh, and the critical hit tables do a good job of emulating that.

Akrasia · April 28, 2008, 08:19:15 AM

Quote from: David JohansenBard had an arrow of dragon slaying with a right of blood vengance on it. The arrow had truely come from the forges of the king under the mountain into his hands for the fated purpose of striking Smaug dead.

Is there any textual support for that interpretation?

I know that the 'black arrow' that Bard used to kill Smaug was in some sense special. That much is clear in the Hobbit. But I didn't think that it had "the fated purpose of striking Smaug dead"!

ColonelHardisson · April 28, 2008, 08:39:30 AM

Quote from: AkrasiaI always thought that the combat system was quite appropriate. Middle-earth is a gritty place where combat is dangerous. An orc can kill even Isildur with a lucky shot.

Cite a single passage Tolkien ever wrote that was as bloody and gruesome as those combat charts. You can't, because there aren't any. The whole point of a game like this is to simulate the author's world, since that is what draws people to the game in the first place. A game should be in keeping with what the original source material was like, or there is no point in its existence.

Akrasia · April 28, 2008, 09:46:28 AM

Quote from: ColonelHardissonCite a single passage Tolkien ever wrote that was as bloody and gruesome as those combat charts. You can't ...

Yes I can!

QuoteThen even as he thought these things the first assault crashed into them. The orcs hindered by the mires that lay before the hills halted and poured their arrows into the defending ranks. But through them there came striding up, roaring like beasts, a great company of hill-trolls out of the Gorgoroth. Taller and broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous hide; but they bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded heavy hammers in their knotted hands. Reckless they came into the pools and waded across, bellowing as they came. Like a storm they broke upon the line of the men of Gondor, and beat upon helm and head, and arm and shield, as smiths hewing the hot bending iron. At Pippin's side Beregond was stunned and over-borne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down.

Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westerness pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out. He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath him. Blackness and stench and crushing pain came upon Pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness.

From the end of "The Black Gate Opens" in The Return of the King. I found that passage in less than two minutes. I'm sure I could find lots more like it if I spent more time.
:cool:

KenHR · April 28, 2008, 09:51:30 AM

Yeah, but find a passage where someone stumbles over that damned turtle!

Seriously, I never thought MERP's combat system was too much to play ME. A lot of blood and broken bones were implied in the books (as Akrasia's cite shows), and much as Tolkien was a part of my childhood, I'd rather have the fun crit charts and stuff when I'm at the table rather than some overwrought purple prose. Go do Elvish calligraphy and debate the root of the word mellon on your own time, thanks...

David Johansen · April 28, 2008, 09:53:51 AM

There's also Merry cutting off the arms of the orcs that tried to seize him and Pippin at the parting of the fellowship. Really though, the fighting is a lot harder on the orcs and trolls than it is on our heroes.

KenHR · April 28, 2008, 09:58:47 AM

Could have something to do with our heroes being the main characters of a book...

Claudius · April 28, 2008, 10:18:13 AM

Quote from: AkrasiaYes I can!

From the end of "The Black Gate Opens" in The Return of the King. I found that passage in less than two minutes. I'm sure I could find lots more like it if I spent more time.
:cool:

A blessing upon you, Akrasia! :worship:

:respect: