Quote from: SpikeI'll address the difficulty when I get to Psuedo's post down below. 2000 points is still within the 'not too difficult' stage, actually, but then, 2000 points also keeps you within two ranks of a carreer.

Mostly I wanted to apologize for seeming to rant at you. That wasn't my intent, though the post may have drifted from its initial tone.  I was attempting to give a reasonable, detailed, answer to a reasonable poster...

I haven't gone higher than 2000 or so, so I think tonight I'll see what 10,000 is like. You might be right. We're supposed to get snowed in and my GF is at 'that time of the month' so I won't have anything better to do.

Quote from: Erik BoielleEffectivly, it just means you are never gonna see fights with lascannons or greater demons or attack helicopters or tanks or a lot of other cool stuff because it would just kill people to often.

Erik, do you post these things just to Troll or do you believe them? I'm at the point where I think you just look at the pictures and think that's what it's all about if it's the latter, but I really think it might be the former. I honestly can't tell.

Tanks mow through units on the TT. Daemons do the same thing. I lost an entire squad of Marines to one fucking Genestealer once. I decimated my friend Artie's entire Imperial Guard army with one Carnifex and a squad of Gargoyles. I watched a Marine Chaplain get taken down regular chump Necrons. Let's not talk about what a Bloodthirster can do to an entire Marine army, eh? Any TT character that can take one of those on is far beyond the scope of any RPG since you're moving into the realm of ridiculousness.

In 40K life is cheap and you don't seem to realize this. The guys you keep rnting and raving about, the dudes with the glistening, bulging biceps and the cool action poses - they usually die right after the 'picture' is taken of them posing like that.

You keep saying that DH isn't true to TT, but in TT I've seen whole Marine Command Squads overrun by Hormigaunts, the ass-end of the Tyranids.

Life is cheap in the 41st Millennium. It's why most planets pay their tithes in blood in addition to goods: aliens, daemons and your much touted tanks rip through even the best of soldiers like wheat.

Also: Necromunda is as much 40K as a squad of Marines and DH characters are better than Necromunda gangs. So how is this all untrue to the genre?

-=Grim=-

It this kind of stuff:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRrOfBgWpjU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9cT3fxlM7c

If you want to run action like that you can't use a system like Dark Heresies - the tank cannons would one-hit your PCs and then where would you be?

It isn't true to th tabletop, but then the novels arn't true to th tabletop. The comics arn't true to tabletop. The videogames arn't true to tabletop. If they made a movie it wouldn't be true to tabletop.

DnD isn't true to tolkien. X-Wing wasn't true to Star Wars.

It isn't a wargame. In the wargame you don't have only 3-4 units (pcs). There is no continuity - everyone just gets back up after the battle for another go. And you generally don't want one side to win all the time!

I mean seriously - try running a combat heavy RPG with the wargame rules and see how far you get!

QuoteAlso: Necromunda is as much 40K as a squad of Marines

Necromunda doesn't shift as much product as Marines. BI=dead from lack of sales. Do the math.

So in your book every OOP game is bad? Poor oWoD fans.

You skirted my question: you keep saying that the WH40K RPG isn't as awesome as the OMGpewpewpew fantasies you have, thus not in keeping with 40K itself. Mainly because PCs can't soak a shot from a TANK. I pointed out that even the much vaunted Marines can't do that.

How is DH not in keeping with 40K's power levels? Humans get mowed down by tanks and daemons. Such is like in the 41st millennium.

I can't believe you posted a cartoon an anime in retort. Explains a lot. As awesome as Appleseed is, it isn't 40K.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah, but take away the power armour and he's looking at a world of hurt when a character with an autogun rolls less than 10.

Conversely, give a starting character the armour and he's still mostly immune to small arms.

Your problem appears to be that characters in DH take damage.

40eriK.

QuoteI can't believe you posted a cartoon an anime in retort. Explains a lot. As awesome as Appleseed is, it isn't 40K.

And if gw made a cartoon, do we think it would be true to tabletop or Appleseed.

Your damn right - just like World of Warhammer Online is true to WoW and Fire Warrior was true to Halo and Dawn of War was true to command and Conquer it'd be true to bloody Appleseed.

If they didn't want to go bust anyway.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineDude, if you want to play a supercompetent character with tons of abilities, you have to spend time figuring out what all those abilities are. Starting at 10th level in D&D really is a pretty time consuming process unless you're a pro who's been building chars for years. DH has now been out for what, a week and a half, maybe two?

That is only true of D&D if you are into hyper-optimization. The fact is that a 10th, 15th or even 20th level character can be made reasonably easily by sticking to one or at most two classes (possibly a prestige class).  Most characters won't have but 7 feats to pick, the fighters have easy to grasp chain feats to suck up their... 14? feat picks at 20th level.  Roll a handfull of dice for hitpoints, add a few (up to 5) points to your stats and assign skill points, arguably the most complex part of the process, and you are done.

Sure: Shopping for magic items can take a while, but thats true any time you hand out wads of cash, in any system.  I've got 7 books full of toys in Cyberpunk 2020 to flip through if I want, and nobody can reasonably argue that Cp2020 was a complex game, or hard to make characters for.

In Dark Heresy, however, you have several pages of charts, broken into chunks. You have non-universal point costs, depending upon which level chart you are looking at. Take the Sound Constituition talent. For a Trooper, a first level Guardsman, it costs 100 xp and can be bought 3 times. For a Stormtrooper it costs 300 xp, but you can still go back and buy the original Trooper levels if, for some reason, you neglected them in the first place. Old charts are not rendered invalid, and the information in them does not accrete into the higher level charts.  To add to the mess, I noted in at least one place were an ability was listed on a chart that the career started with for free...  

Its not excessively hard, I suppose; Merely tedious in the extreme.  The idea of accumulating skills and talents as a means of 'leveling up' is prefectly fine and dandy. Its the piss poor organization and the excessive glut of 'point sink' talents... often, bizzarely, unavailable at lower levels that irritate me most.   Working with large numbers for the sake of 'lots of zeroes' is unnecessary. Every xp number could be divided by 50, or even 100 and it would be more intuitive and play exactly the same.

My point remains: Its a shoddy hack job of the existing WHFRP with few, if any redeeming features other than stats for the nifty toys and pretty pages. There is nothing remarkable about it, certainly nothing that justifies releasing it a year late, with two years spent on the project and a massive 'design by committee' staff.

Of course, I am being unfair by focusing on the character creation portion. There were some gems in there, or at least half gems.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYour problem appears to be that characters in DH take damage.

More that if you listn to the DnD podcast they talk about damage outputs and wether mechanics make things more or less fun and it is SO much better that the 'Lascannons should stop you from having fun' or 'troll slayers should not be fun to play' or ;'the imperium should make an RPG more difficult'.

Fuck you and your shoulds! Do the damn mechanics work in the real world! Do they make this FUCKING GAME more fun!

LOL, you *are* a 4ron.

"Damage isn't fun, fun, FUN! Let's get rid of it. And characters should be AWESOME! At first level! Because anything else isn't fun! Fuck hit points. Now you have "boo boo" points and are only stunned one round when you take damage that brings you down to 0, then you're back to full health... but only after pumping yourself up to some AWESOME deathmetal. What's the use of equipment lists anyway? No one should have to pay for awesome stuff, 'cuz that isn't FUN! Or AWESOME!"

I have a feeling your RPG sessions are a snorefest. I can't imagine them to be much more than "OMGpewpewpewI'mawesomepewpewkillkill".

D&D 4e is definitely your cup of tea.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: One Horse Town40eriK.

He's not worthy of this.

Erik = LoL

Spike = LoL, but harder.

If only we could work his name into F.A.T.A.L. since that'd be more fitting I think...

-=Grim=-

Quote from: Erik BoielleFuck you and your shoulds! Do the damn mechanics work in the real world! Do they make this FUCKING GAME more fun!

Have you actually played a session of Dark Heresy?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineHave you actually played a session of Dark Heresy?

I'm sure he hasn't.

He also has never played Warhammer 40,000 and thinks that it's an anime.

Spike> It's true that you have to consult many charts, but if you're finding it too complicated as it stands, here's a simple tip: Photocopy the charts (or download one of the pdf scans of the book available on the internet and print them off) and then just go along with a pencil or marker putting check marks next to each talent as you buy it. Just keep a running tally of how much experience you've spent, and you'll be fine. Organising the information spatially like that will make it much easier to digest.

It's the same with D&D monsters, actually, which is where I learnt the trick. Print off the monster's base from d20srd, along with the abilities you can't remember at a glance. Then just write over the print out in sharpie as you play and use the blank space of the page for notes as necessary. You can even use the back of the page for encounter notes if you need them.

Quote from: GrimJestaD&D 4e is definitely your cup of tea

Well, at least it won't be canned the day after it comes out!