QuoteThen you started ranting about things I didn't even bring up.

Blackhand's posting style would seem to be rubbing off.

If you want characters to start off more experienced, you need to hand out XP at the start so that players can build those characters. It's a bit like saying in a game with point-buy "Ok, normally starting dweebs only have 5 points to spend, but I want a heroic game. You all start with 20."

This is a silly non-issue.

Dark Heresy's main problem is just that it was clearly designed to be part of a trio of corebooks which would mutually expand upon one another's information and game play options, but the other two will never come out. This is a problem, but it's not an insoluble one, and it's not even fatal. If you want to play one of the options that was supposed to be dealt with in another one of the corebooks, you're out of luck, it's true. But if you don't - if you want to play any of the character options presented in DH, it does a pretty good job of letting you do so.

Quote from: GrimJestaThis is why I drink myself to sleep at night...

Heh. I didn't need this thread for that. You're behind the curve.

Oh, and on topic...

It's true that homebrewing isn't really an excuse for bad design moves, but when it's as simple as adding extra xp it really is so close to a non-issue as to actually approach being a non-issue. It's like complaining that D&D characters start off too lame when you can just make characters that start off at level 5, or that Mages are too weak in (whichever version of) Mage when you can just add exp to be spent on magic-y shit.

The details are probably a bit different, and I haven't read the book so I imagine it's super easy to just stroll in (Blackhand, for example) and tell me that I lack enough cred to discuss the matter at all. But I've played a lot of games, and read even more, so I've at least got some college credit.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIf you want characters to start off more experienced, you need to hand out XP at the start so that players can build those characters. It's a bit like saying in a game with point-buy "Ok, normally starting dweebs only have 5 points to spend, but I want a heroic game. You all start with 20."

This is a silly non-issue.

.

I've been playing with it since it came out and I can tell you that, quite unlike even D&D, it is not a 'non-issue' to just hand out more XP and solve the problem. Past the first two ranks in the career it rapidly spirals out of hand.

To put it into D&D terms its like saying 'well, 1st level is sort of weak, but if you want to you can play much higher levels to start...like 3rd.  But if you try 10th...well, its gonna take eight hours and three people double checking to do it right.'

Can't we all just get along?

I only said you were ignorant when you showed that you were.

I didn't say anyone was stupid.  I let you do that yourselves.

Surely, we can all chill out and be cool.

We all like Warhammer, even if some of you are remiss to admit it.

Quote from: SpikeI've been playing with it since it came out and I can tell you that, quite unlike even D&D, it is not a 'non-issue' to just hand out more XP and solve the problem. Past the first two ranks in the career it rapidly spirals out of hand.

To put it into D&D terms its like saying 'well, 1st level is sort of weak, but if you want to you can play much higher levels to start...like 3rd.  But if you try 10th...well, its gonna take eight hours and three people double checking to do it right.'

I'm not understanding your point here. I mean, I *see* what you're saying, but it does not compute and I don't think it's because I rode the short bus to school or my mother slapped upside the head too often. How is basic addition "spiraling out of control"? I'm not knocking you, I'm just not understanding you. I just made a 2,000 point NPC two nights ago and it was easy as fuck.

100 XP + 100 XP + 100 XP + 100 XP + 200 XP + 200 XP + 100 XP + 250 XP, etc.. It's much easier than leveling a character from scratch than, say, D&D in any of its incarnations (besides Basic), WoD in any of it's incarnations, or pretty much any game I have on my bookshelf.

So I'm not seeing the difficulty.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: BlackhandWe all like Warhammer, even if some of you are remiss to admit it.

I don't! But the thread's great!

Quote from: BlackhandWe all like Warhammer, even if some of you are remiss to admit it.

Warhammer is dead to me.

When they stopped producing or supporting Blood Bowl, I lost interest.

Thank god I abandoned the useless mini wargames that GW pumps out. Besides WFRP & the 40K setting, Space Hulk (& Blood Bowl) are the only games worth playing...all of which are no longer in production.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThank god I abandoned the useless mini wargames that GW pumps out. Besides WFRP & the 40K setting, Space Hulk (& Blood Bowl) are the only games worth playing...all of which are no longer in production.

Regards,
David R

Amen to that. All that interests me is the 40k setting in general terms, and Abnett's novels more specifically. Which is a rich source of roleplaying material.

Quote from: SpikeI've been playing with it since it came out and I can tell you that, quite unlike even D&D, it is not a 'non-issue' to just hand out more XP and solve the problem. Past the first two ranks in the career it rapidly spirals out of hand.

To put it into D&D terms its like saying 'well, 1st level is sort of weak, but if you want to you can play much higher levels to start...like 3rd.  But if you try 10th...well, its gonna take eight hours and three people double checking to do it right.'

Dude, if you want to play a supercompetent character with tons of abilities, you have to spend time figuring out what all those abilities are. Starting at 10th level in D&D really is a pretty time consuming process unless you're a pro who's been building chars for years. DH has now been out for what, a week and a half, maybe two?

Quote from: GrimJestaI'm not understanding your point here. I mean, I *see* what you're saying, but it does not compute and I don't think it's because I rode the short bus to school or my mother slapped upside the head too often. How is basic addition "spiraling out of control"? I'm not knocking you, I'm just not understanding you. I just made a 2,000 point NPC two nights ago and it was easy as fuck.

100 XP + 100 XP + 100 XP + 100 XP + 200 XP + 200 XP + 100 XP + 250 XP, etc.. It's much easier than leveling a character from scratch than, say, D&D in any of its incarnations (besides Basic), WoD in any of it's incarnations, or pretty much any game I have on my bookshelf.

So I'm not seeing the difficulty.

-=Grim=-

I'll address the difficulty when I get to Psuedo's post down below. 2000 points is still within the 'not too difficult' stage, actually, but then, 2000 points also keeps you within two ranks of a carreer.

Mostly I wanted to apologize for seeming to rant at you. That wasn't my intent, though the post may have drifted from its initial tone.  I was attempting to give a reasonable, detailed, answer to a reasonable poster...

Quote from: PseudoephedrineDude, if you want to play a supercompetent character with tons of abilities, you have to spend time figuring out what all those abilities are.

Well yeah thats the thing -  cause the system is based on playing peons making someone who iisn't is a pain.

Even 'high level' characters arn't exactly death on legs - maxed out characters only get +20% to stats, and even the toughest characters the system can make are gonna be turned to mush by hits from standard issue guard heavy weapons and bolt guns.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell yeah thats the thing -  cause the system is based on playing peons making someone who iisn't is a pain.

Even 'high level' characters arn't exactly death on legs - maxed out characters only get +20% to stats, and even the toughest characters the system can make are gonna be turned to mush by hits from standard issue guard heavy weapons and bolt guns.

IG heavy weapons are intended to turn people to mush, and they do so in the wargame as well as the RPG. If you want characters who are immune to lascannons, you want characters who are stronger than even marine chapter commanders.

Bolters, on the other hand, are not as serious as you are suggesting. The "toughest character" in the game as written would have a toughness of 60+ and be wearing best quality power armour. This would let him soak 15 points of damage - the maximum damage of a non-heavy-weapon bolter. The penetration value of the bolter would let four points of damage go through - if it attained the maximum damage roll possible. The character in question, as the toughest character in the game, would have about 28 wounds (he would be a 7th rank guardsman stormtrooper), meaning that a bolt gun dealing its maximum damage would remove slightly less than 1/7th of his total wounds.

In game, this character could reasonably expect to survive a hit from anti-tank weapons like meltaguns and krak grenades, let alone any sort of anti-personnel weapon.

Your complaint is baseless as it is currently formulated.

Yeah, but take away the power armour and he's looking at a world of hurt when a character with an autogun rolls less than 10.

Conversely, give a starting character the armour and he's still mostly immune to small arms.

Yknow? And 40k  has tanks and demons and everything to contend with at higher levels. Its just not intended to produce interesting combat at the kind of level where people are toting lascannons and whatnot.

Effectivly, it just means you are never gonna see fights with lascannons or greater demons or attack helicopters or tanks or a lot of other cool stuff because it would just kill people to often.