Quote from: BlackhandI'm just saying if you're not a fan of the genre, and Warhammer 40,000 in particular, why keep subjecting yourself to BL novels you know you hate?

It's just that if you had formed this opinion based on what you'd read and know about Warhammer 40,000 maybe it would have been more than "they suck and have dry characters".  Most of the novels I have read would be a dry read for a non-Warhammer player, but lots of my buddies say they love the ones they've read.

As far as hero stats go, Strength and Toughness max out at 5 for space marines and 4 for normal humans.  That's 50-59 / 40-49 in game terms for Dark Heresy.  With no more than 3 wounds (30-39).  Don't forget the Instant Death rule either, which doesn't care about your wounds.

I take your points.

If I wanted to use DH to run a rogue trader game, how would you recommend I went about adapting it?  Could I adapt it without doing a ton of work do you think?  Obviously it was never meant for that, but is it adaptable to it anyway in your view?

Quote from: Blackhand@Kiero - I don't really collect the BL novels as you seem to, but I have quite a selection...some of them were boring and some of them were good, and some were only good if you have spent some time with the related manuals such as codeci and the rulebook.

Right, yeah, because reading that garbage would make me appreciate garbage based on it so much more...oh wait, no it wouldn't, you're talking nonsense.  

Quote from: BlackhandJust to be fair to those guys who have their names printed, name something you have published and send me a signed copy.  Then you can talk shit about their stories and I might actually give you some credit other than just laugh at your rather insipid comments about how they suck, which smack of jealousy and impotent resignation.

Course. Must be that. You got it all sewn up. Balbinus debunked this particular one better than I would have.

I don't subject myself to crap I don't like, I only read Abnett. Occasionally I get the odd Mitchell book out from the library, but I won't buy them. I could quite happily forget the rest of the material produced for 40k, and indeed I do. Works for me.

@ Balbinus - Of course it is! The systems are nearly transparent.  As long as the player characters are human, there really isn't an issue.

You would need to develop career paths, but I would just swap (as the PC's master) the Inquisitor for a Rogue Trader and use the same ones printed...I mean, a Guardsman is a Guardsman, whatever shape he may take.  I'm sure I could work with a player to create a Commissar character if he wanted one, with little or no conversion work.

With a little more work, you could adapt the game to a Gorkamorka style Ork campaign, or Tau or even Eldar.  Just come up with the Career Paths and any new Skills or Talents you might want.  The codeci for the aliens in question would be indispensable for this purpose, and if available I would get copies of older edition material as well.

Space Marines would require a lot more work but are feasable.  The career paths would be easy, it's getting around the superhuman nature of the combats they can become involved in that is the issue.  In a game where all the PC's are Space Marines, even this issue comes down to just a little experimentation.

What doesn't really fly is mixing normal humans with Space Marines.  The 'norms' would have to be truly exceptional to have any hope of being something other than a groupie for the Space Marines sent to fetch data or maybe dinner.

In this respect, I understand why and am happy that Dark Heresy has a more narrow approach to roleplaying in the Imperium than some of you would like.

@ Kiero - Good thing you have friends like Balbinus that make sense when they type.  I'm glad you don't like Warhammer or Dark Heresy.

Quote from: David RSeriously, can't you take a joke or do you have to piss around threads finding things that offend you? Your political/social commentary is boring as it is and I know that certain games offend your sensibilities, but fuck it, question away and if I find anything remotely interesting about them, I'll answer.

Didn't say it offended me.  I said that I think there is something to the emotional/class tourism argument (which others have made).  So in a way, yes, I think it's a class thing, or a culture thing, anyway.  In other words, I think there was some truth to the comments that you apparently made in jest.

In any event, feel free to kill file me if that would make you feel better.  I wouldn't want you to feel like I'm forcing you to read my boring commentary or anything. :rolleyes:

Quote from: BalbinusI never agree with Erik, sadly this time the fucker's right.  The game should have been pitched to let you play 40k games, instead it's pitched to let you play in the 40k universe.  Those are very different things.

I don't think that I agree with you, Balbinus.  With 20/20 hindsight it is apparent that it would have been better to have published a more comprehensive game just because the follow-on games will never be published, but I never had a problem with the model of more focussed games with different assumed PC power levels.  Presumably Rogue Trader and especially Deathwatch would have provided rules and career paths for more powerful PCs.  I guess we may never know.

As for the question of power levels in Dark Heresy, I have approached the 40K universe primarily through playing Necromunda.  That is what bugs me about these rather myopic ideas of what the 40K universe is.  Some people look to some of the novels and want a game of Space Marine ULTRAVIOLENCE or über-powerful Inquisitors.  Others, myself included, see the potential in a game for gritty, lower-power action akin to the scale of Necromunda.

It is a real shame that we will probably never know if the follow on games would have given you everything for your ULTRAVIOLENCE needs.  I just find it strange that some people are so attached to their version of 40K that there is no room for any others.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianI just find it strange that some people are so attached to their version of 40K that there is no room for any others.

Also it is strange that some people don't realize that whatever you can imagine can be the 40k setting.  Narrowness of focus doesn't equate with restricting game opportunities, within the context of the focus.

It's like bitching the new D&D 4e won't have laserguns or giant robot assault suits.  It's irrelevant and silly.

Quote from: Blackhand@ I mean, a Guardsman is a Guardsman, whatever shape he may take.  I'm sure I could work with a player to create a Commissar character if he wanted one, with little or no conversion work.

With a little more work, you could adapt the game to a Gorkamorka style Ork campaign, or Tau or even Eldar.  Just come up with the Career Paths and any new Skills or Talents you might want.  The codeci for the aliens in question would be indispensable for this purpose, and if available I would get copies of older edition material as well.
.

And.....


You're wrong.

First of all, I doubt any Commisar, a graduate of the Schola Progenium, that is an orphan raised to be a soldier, would ever be so pitifully trained as the common 'trooper' that you start as. Unlike many games, its fucking awful to try and upgrade your character to 'higher default' starting levels, say a Commisar...

While certainly one could cobble together an Eldar simply by stealing the "elf" traits from WHFRP you are absolutely assraped in the fact that there is no support for, say, shuriken catapults, aspect shrine careers (guardsman my ass...) or other things that make an Eldar an Eldar, and not a human with funny ears.

Its worse with the Tau. While the nominally fall into 'human ranges' at the table top, we know thier stats are likely to be radically different, and more to the point, their castes and technology are utterly incompatable with what is in the book... to the point where you'd have to write the equivilent of 1/4 of the character creation system to do them justice (much, I should point out, like the eldar...)... their careers simply do not, and should not, match up.

Now: a more wide open... and more importantly higher skilled (you keep thinking low powered complaints are tied strictly to the attributes...a strawman, as no one has claimed that) character creation system could have been made even keeping it roughly cross compatable with the old fantasy iteration of the game simply by removing premade career paths and applying a more open method of buying the skills/talents necessary to create your concept charater... perhaps with guidelines on what skills and talents are commonly found (or qualify you for...) in certain careers. The resultant space savings (in pages and writing time) could have then been used to add fucking xenos... inquisitors certainly are likely to be found talking to or investigating xenos of all types, and the Tau and Eldar were pretty quick to show up in...

....wait for it...


...wait for it...


INQUISITOR!

That's right, the OTHER game about playing fucking inquistors and their retinues.  

Wow. Imagine that.

Sorry Erik- but this is actually WH40k

In Warhammer 40k, if you're a human (even a Space Marine) you're fucked.

Quote from: KrakaJakSorry Erik- but this is actually WH40k

In Warhammer 40k, if you're a human (even a Space Marine) you're fucked.

People (and I include the minigame's designers in this) have a tendency to forget that Space Marines are that bulked out because they have to be.

Quote from: SpikeAnd.....


You're wrong.

I can tell you didn't read my post and I haven't bothered to repeat what you have written.

YOU are still thinking that you should have a higher power level.  You should not.

If you MUST have more power, just give everyone +10 to all rolls for Characteristics and VOILA FUCKING PRESTO you have a guardsman hero.  In Warhammer, +1 to a stat is a BIG FUCKING DEAL, and that's all a Commissar gets in most cases.  Since you can't do math, +1 in Warhammer = +10 in Dark Heresy.  Making a career path isn't as hard as you might think, but then I can tell your brain is hurting from the strain it took to write all those fiddly little words in your post.

As far as the aliens go, I said it would require work, but what the fuck are you talking about no support? I actually have tons of manuals detailing statistics and effects for every Eldar / Tau / Ork / Zoat / Tyranid Bio Construct and Necron weapon known to the Imperium and it wouldn't be hard to convert them.  Shuriken Catapult = Pretty much same stats as a bolter, S4 AP5 Range 24" (2nd Ed) OR Range 12" (3rd Ed) with either Sustained Fire or Assault 2 depending on which of those editions tickle your fancy.  Fiddle with the range / shots of a bolter in Dark Heresy and you have your fucking Shurikat.  Also, if you had bothered to read before you ran your mouth you'll see I had noted you'd be working on Career Paths and Skills for those races, but you COULD DO IT IF YOU FUCKING WANTED TO.  THERES EVEN PRINTED SHIT YOU COULD BUY SO YOU COULD DO IT RIGHT.  I FEEL I MUST TYPE IN CAPS HERE SO THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO REGISTER THIS EMPHASIS.

Way to think outside the box, I'm glad you won't be playing Dark Heresy after they quit publishing material.

Lets be honest, Inquisitor is the lamest and most overly complex of all GW games, and I am a die-hard supporter of GW.  It's just that it sucks, not the concept.  The books are great products.  However, the game wasn't streamlined enough to be playable by a large club, which is presumably what GW games are for.  Also, there was no balancing system other than the arbitrary 'ready reckoner'.  I believe it would have had more success if the system wasn't as complex, because it really didn't need to be.  The large models was the draw for that, but you could play it with regular Warhammer 40,000 minis.

I'm going to touch on Inquisitor for a minute.

I'm pretty sure I was the only person that bought that NON-game. There is no character creation and no play balance. It's not an RPG, and it's not a strategy game...it is actually absolutely nothing.

Inquisitor is incomplete. Games Workshop sold me air, printed between two pages. It's not even abstract, there are no rules and there is NO GAME in there. Some may say they took the golden rule a little too far. They in fact sold you a big book for a game you could supposedly play with their big mini's, but when you open it up the book says- "YOU make a fucking game out of this, we got your money bitch!!!"

Anybody that has played a "good game" of inquisitor has a GM who should be a game designer.

Quote from: KrakaJakI'm going to touch on Inquisitor for a minute.

I'm pretty sure I was the only person that bought that NON-game. There is no character creation and no play balance. It's not an RPG, and it's not a strategy game...it is actually absolutely nothing.

Inquisitor is incomplete. Games Workshop sold me air, printed between two pages. It's not even abstract, there are no rules and there is NO GAME in there. Some may say they took the golden rule a little too far. They in fact sold you a big book for a game you could supposedly play with their big mini's, but when you open it up the book says- "YOU make a fucking game out of this, we got your money bitch!!!"

Anybody that has played a "good game" of inquisitor has a GM who should be a game designer.

I think people mention Inquisitor because it was either an 'abstract' game or 'superdetailed' and that somehow speaking of being 'abstract' or 'superdetailed' in and of itself makes them cool, because they obviously have played lots of Inquisitor and can prove it by talking about it.  It's like running up to a Grindcore Metalhead and saying 'Yeah I know what metal is all about man back in the day I used to jam to Aerosmith!'

The reality is that Inquisitor sucks and nobody talks about it anymore for the shame.

Some of the stuff in it was good, however, and set the tone of what was to come by fleshing out sections of the Inquisition that were never explored before.  Not one of these things I'm referring to had anything to do with the actual gameplay.

Quote from: BlackhandSome of the stuff in it was good, however, and set the tone of what was to come by fleshing out sections of the Inquisition that were never explored before.  Not one of these things I'm referring to had anything to do with the actual gameplay.

Agreed on all accounts,.

Quote from: John MorrowDidn't say it offended me.  I said that I think there is something to the emotional/class tourism argument (which others have made).  So in a way, yes, I think it's a class thing, or a culture thing, anyway.  In other words, I think there was some truth to the comments that you apparently made in jest.

In any event, feel free to kill file me if that would make you feel better.  I wouldn't want you to feel like I'm forcing you to read my boring commentary or anything. :rolleyes:

I apologize John. I get your point. My comments were unnecessarily hostile and unfair.

Not to derail the thread any further but I just have to say...all your 40K novels suck :evillaugh: but apparently so does my Rogue Trader

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BalbinusThe thing that really fucks me off with Dark Heresy, I mean seriously fucks me off, is that I've agreed pretty much entirely with Erik Boille's post-release analysis of where it goes wrong at the conceptual level.

Yes, well, I fucking called it.

What hacks me off is that I've been going on about this for years, and the dumb fuckers wouldn't listen.

Well good work geniuses - you wasted the 40k licence.