Quote from: John MorrowI think there is something to the emotional/class tourism argument.  Seriously, do you think lower-income girls would want to play a game about lower-income girls looking for happiness (Nicotine Girls) or is the idea of playing such characters more likely to appeal to middle and upper-class guys for whom such characters might actually seem a bit unusual if not exotic?

Seriously, can't you take a joke or do you have to piss around threads finding things that offend you? Your political/social commentary is boring as it is and I know that certain games offend your sensibilities, but fuck it, question away and if I find anything remotely interesting about them, I'll answer.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Thanatos02Who is it, J?

No idea, don't really care, I just know his rambling, incoherent, and irrelevant responses make my brain hurt.

Now I have to go and register a female persona who loves warhammer and masturbates over space marine figures.

The reason structure consumes space is that careers are one more thing that takes description and pages.  GURPS boils them down to nice little templates just like races.  Everything is plug and play which is why you could cover the c'tan with a half page template.  You'd have to trim the skill and advantage list a bunch but I think most of what I'd need's in Prime Directive.  Fewer races means more pages for vehicle rules and stats.

I'll be honest and note that I'd trim back hard on the new "high quality" background and in exchange for a broad overview and there wouldn't be a starter adventure because I never use them and am not fond of finding them polluting my rulebook.

Yes that's right, a rule book should be a reference book about the rules, a setting book should be a reference book about the setting and ideally I'd never find one in the same book as the other...

Quote from: David JohansenNow I have to go and register a female persona who loves warhammer and masturbates over space marine figures.

The reason structure consumes space is that careers are one more thing that takes description and pages.  GURPS boils them down to nice little templates just like races.  Everything is plug and play which is why you could cover the c'tan with a half page template.  You'd have to trim the skill and advantage list a bunch but I think most of what I'd need's in Prime Directive.  Fewer races means more pages for vehicle rules and stats.

I'll be honest and note that I'd trim back hard on the new "high quality" background and in exchange for a broad overview and there wouldn't be a starter adventure because I never use them and am not fond of finding them polluting my rulebook.

Yes that's right, a rule book should be a reference book about the rules, a setting book should be a reference book about the setting and ideally I'd never find one in the same book as the other...

Lemme just say, nothing personal but...

Everyone should take a moment to decide how they would shit on this book he's speaking of.  I'll name a few we'd hear right off the bat...

1. Not enough background
2. No starter adventure
3. Too broad an outline
4. Too disparate character generation for one book
5. Not enough vehicle rules
6. Not enough insanity rules
7-499. Insert whatever you like to bitch about here.
500. You have C'tan as PC's.
501. Isn't user friendly being hard crunch throughout.

The thing that really fucks me off with Dark Heresy, I mean seriously fucks me off, is that I've agreed pretty much entirely with Erik Boille's post-release analysis of where it goes wrong at the conceptual level.

I never agree with Erik, sadly this time the fucker's right.  The game should have been pitched to let you play 40k games, instead it's pitched to let you play in the 40k universe.  Those are very different things.

Quote from: BlackhandHasn't there been ENOUGH Inquisition subject matter published by GW in the 20 years of Warhammer 40,000?

Most of which has either been snippets, or invariably shit.

Quote from: BlackhandDan Abnett is not the end-all be-all of Warhammer fiction.  In fact I've only heard his name in the last 10 years or so.

He can write. Which puts him ahead of 90% of the people BL employ to churn out drek. I mean have you ever read any of the excrable works of Jonathan Green?

Quote from: BlackhandDark Heresy is obviously not the game for you if you think this way.  

Well, duh, as I was saying, I think the entire premise is shite.

Quote from: BlackhandLike Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, they targeted the game at people who are aware of and play the battle games and who are wanting to set a roleplaying game in that universe - not for roleplayers in general.  I think it's this issue that is the seed of the dissatisfaction most of you seem to be expressing.

I thought WFRP was wank when I played it ten years ago. I still think it's wank now.

Quote from: BlackhandI also enjoy the fact that some of you seem to think you have a superb grip on the background from a recent spattering of books from a single prolific author.  You're an idiot.

I had second edition Rogue Trader from years back before I lost it. Or sold it. Can't actually remember which. I even bought that rag White Dwarf regularly for a while. Thankfully I did stop wasting my money on the pointless little figures GW churn out, and the equally pointless time-sink of painting the stupid little things.

Quote from: BlackhandIn the end I think you'd get more out of Dark Heresy if you were already into 40k, period.  Yeah, it lacks some depth as far as background goes, but if you have a chest full of old material from 15+ years of GW then it's not really an issue for you - you don't even notice it and you wonder why the book is so goddamned big in the first place.  I know what a damn heavy bolter is already, I know what the Ordos are and what they do and how they go about it.  If you don't and need clarification or more background information (the Calixis Sector?  I don't even use this chapter - my gaming groups' very own Mardannon Sector is the setting instead.)

I got more than enough, and better from reading Eisenhorn and Ravenor. Certainly more efficient than collecting clippings, or buying those stupid codices for the wargame.

But I'd get more out of DH if it actually bore any resemblance to the material it claims to be inspired by (yet isn't).

Quote from: BlackhandThere's literally TONS of material on the Inquisition, but get a little creativity and MAKE SOMETHING UP!  The galaxy is huge and teeming with thousands of Inquisitors who may or may not be aware of one another and each other's plots.  Try your imagination, or go back to your D&D table.

Don't play D&D, thanks. Haven't for about twelve years. Nice try, though.

Quote from: BalbinusThe thing that really fucks me off with Dark Heresy, I mean seriously fucks me off, is that I've agreed pretty much entirely with Erik Boille's post-release analysis of where it goes wrong at the conceptual level.

I never agree with Erik, sadly this time the fucker's right.  The game should have been pitched to let you play 40k games, instead it's pitched to let you play in the 40k universe.  Those are very different things.

So you're saying it should have allowed us to play Warhammer 40,000?

They already make that game and you didn't have to wait 20 years to play it.

@ Kiero - there's no such thing as 2nd Edition Rogue Trader, k?  Also, if you owned the codices you'd know a lot more about it than you think you do.  Try Codex: Daemonhunters, circa 2003 or Witchhunters from '04.  Take time out from your hobby of making pointless uninformed posts to devote more time to your hobby of playing whatever game that you think is wank that you are playing now.

Also, each BL author has his own view of the 40k universe and that's ok...each depiction is correct in its own way.  The Imperium really is that big and diverse.

The only way you'd get Kiero back to a DnD table would be at gunpoint.

Quote from: BlackhandSo you're saying it should have allowed us to play Warhammer 40,000?

They already make that game and you didn't have to wait 20 years to play it.

@ Kiero - there's no such thing as 2nd Edition Rogue Trader, k?  Also, if you owned the codices you'd know a lot more about it than you think you do.  Try Codex: Daemonhunters, circa 2003 or Witchhunters from '04.

Well, obviously they didn't know the line would get cancelled, so it's not really their fault we have a game which doesn't cover what everyone hoped for.  Had things gone to plan, we would have had a marines rpg and we would have had a rogue trader rpg.

My point was more to the power level, the power level in the game follows the WFRP model, but not the 40k source material IMO.  I think it's quixotic to make a licenced game in which you play characters so far below the abilities of those in the licenced setting.  I'd make the same criticism of Star Wars d20as was if you're familiar with that.

To clarify on a related point, my main interest is in whether it's a good game in its own right, I don't follow 40k otherwise so how faithful or not it is is ultimately of rather academic concern to me, though I think more fidelity might have equated to more success.

To answer your question, I think they should have allowed us to play on an rpg basis characters that would fit into 40k without looking too odd, and then release a gritty and low powered version later as a supplement were the demand to be there.  40k ain't an rpg, so it doesn't fill the niche a 40k rpg is intended to fill.

Quote from: Blackhand@ Kiero - there's no such thing as 2nd Edition Rogue Trader, k?  Also, if you owned the codices you'd know a lot more about it than you think you do.  Try Codex: Daemonhunters, circa 2003 or Witchhunters from '04.  Take time out from your hobby of making pointless uinformed posts to devote more time to your hobby of playing whatever game that you think is wank that you are playing now.

You're mistaking me for someone who really gives a flying fuck what pap they printed in some modules for a game I have no desire to play.

Quote from: BlackhandAlso, each BL author has his own view of the 40k universe and that's ok...each depiction is correct in its own way.  The Imperium really is that big and diverse.

No, most of them can't write for shit, and feature dull characters. I know because I've suffered my way through more of them than I care to think about.

Quote from: BlackhandLike Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, they targeted the game at people who are aware of and play the battle games and who are wanting to set a roleplaying game in that universe - not for roleplayers in general.  I think it's this issue that is the seed of the dissatisfaction most of you seem to be expressing.

I'm not sure, I think it's aimed at roleplayers in general more than the wargamers actually, but not quite enough so, I think it falls between the two camps a bit.

Quote from: BlackhandIn the end I think you'd get more out of Dark Heresy if you were already into 40k, period.  Yeah, it lacks some depth as far as background goes, but if you have a chest full of old material from 15+ years of GW then it's not really an issue for you - you don't even notice it and you wonder why the book is so goddamned big in the first place.  I know what a damn heavy bolter is already, I know what the Ordos are and what they do and how they go about it.  If you don't and need clarification or more background information (the Calixis Sector?  I don't even use this chapter - my gaming groups' very own Mardannon Sector is the setting instead.)

Absolutely, I think if you are already into 40k that's obviously going to help.

Most human characters in each Warhammer setting has T3 and 1 wound, which translates to 30-39 Toughness and 10-19 wounds, with little or no armor for mitigation.

That's pretty close to the source material.  That is quite apparent.

I mean, if you actually know what you're talking about.

@Kiero - I don't really collect the BL novels as you seem to, but I have quite a selection...some of them were boring and some of them were good, and some were only good if you have spent some time with the related manuals such as codeci and the rulebook.  

Just to be fair to those guys who have their names printed, name something you have published and send me a signed copy.  Then you can talk shit about their stories and I might actually give you some credit other than just laugh at your rather insipid comments about how they suck, which smack of jealousy and impotent resignation.

Quote from: BlackhandMost human characters in each Warhammer setting has T3 and 1 wound, which translates to 30-39 Toughness and 10-19 wounds, with little or no armor for mitigation.

That's pretty close to the source material.  That is quite apparent.

I mean, if you actually know what you're talking about.

Are you talking grunt troops or heroes though?

As for your last sentence, I agreed with Erik upthread, obviously I don't know what I'm talking about.

Quote from: BlackhandJust to be fair to those guys who have their names printed, name something you have published and send me a signed copy.  Then you can talk shit about their stories and I might actually give you some credit other than just your rather insipid comments about how they suck.

Name something you've written is a really weak argument, by that standard one can't come out of a movie and say it sucked unless one has released one's own movies.  Your other arguments are better, this one not so much.

Quote from: BalbinusName something you've written is a really weak argument, by that standard one can't come out of a movie and say it sucked unless one has released one's own movies.  Your other arguments are better, this one not so much.

I'm just saying if you're not a fan of the genre, and Warhammer 40,000 in particular, why keep subjecting yourself to BL novels you know you hate?

It's just that if you had formed this opinion based on what you'd read and know about Warhammer 40,000 maybe it would have been more than "they suck and have dry characters".  Most of the novels I have read would be a dry read for a non-Warhammer player, but lots of my buddies say they love the ones they've read.

As far as hero stats go, Strength and Toughness max out at 5 for space marines and 4 for normal humans.  That's 50-59 / 40-49 in game terms for Dark Heresy.  With no more than 3 wounds (30-39).  Don't forget the Instant Death rule either, which doesn't care about your wounds.