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What the fuck is this guy smoking?

Started by RPGPundit, February 04, 2008, 10:52:13 AM

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David R

#75
February 05, 2008, 11:44:22 AM
Quote from: StuartSome RPGs have shifted to the angsty teen morality of later childhood.  That doesn't make them grown up though. :)

And some games still revel in juvenile wish fulfillment fantasies.

I do think there have always been games which have broken away from the pack and tried something different. Gamers have always explored mature themes in their games. And I think of late certain games are not aimed at the teen market but rather to the older demographic of gamers.

Regards,
David R

Ian Absentia

#76
February 05, 2008, 11:44:23 AM
Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeThe games are growing up with their audience, maybe not in lock-step, but nearly so. Das schwarze Auge in Germany, D&D3, Vampire The Masquerade and Unknown Armies -- the games get considerably more complex, in all directions, be it rules, or shades-of-grey-morals, or "mature themes".
I can't speak for Das Schwarze Auge, but the other three, while their intent and support material may be mature in nature and content, are seldom played so seriously in my experience.

I can speak to Unknown Armies in particular.  I was peripherally involved in writing some of the early books for the game, and I was constantly irritated and confounded by fans who mistook depravity and venality for "mature content," and would confront those of us writing the game on this misconception.  They saw the blood splatters on the covers and didn't explore the themes beyond that.  I became disenchanted and moved on to other, brighter (and hopefully more "mature") pursuits.

!i!

James Maliszewski

#77
February 05, 2008, 11:46:50 AM
Quote from: SettembriniSee Mike Mearls and Traveller.
I'm curious: did Mearls say something recently about Traveller? I know from personal experience that he's admitted to never having understood the game, so this piqued my interest.
 

Settembrini

#78
February 05, 2008, 12:06:47 PM
That´s about it. He said so on your (?) blog recently.

Anyway, the main thing I´m complaining about is the total lack of understanding for strategy and strategic gaming in current and future D&D.

And I fear, our old Mearls is part of that.

Someone who don´t groks Traveller, and someone who doesn´t see that Arkham Horror has an optimal strategy that invalidates the point in playing it, could be strategically challenged.

To be honest, Mike is just a stand-in here. I don´t really know him , so he might be Napoleon himself. Personalizing and finding culprits is part of the internet-gaming-scene-observation-game.
What I said in my second sentence is important.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Blackleaf

#79
February 05, 2008, 12:08:19 PM
Quote from: David RAnd some games still revel in juvenile wish fulfillment fantasies.

I do think there have always been games which have broken away from the pack and tried something different. Gamers have always explored mature themes in their games. And I think of late certain games are not aimed at the teen market but rather to the older demographic of gamers.

I haven't played Das Schwarze Auge or Unknown Armies, but D&D3 and Vampire are both very much wish fulfillment fantasies.  And I absolutely agree that many recent games are targeted at a 20+ demographic.  That doesn't make them genuinely "mature" games though. :)

James Maliszewski

#80
February 05, 2008, 12:11:00 PM
Quote from: SettembriniThat´s about it. He said so on your (?) blog recently.
Yes, he did say so on my blog; I was curious if it'd come up elsewhere, since I didn't realize anyone read my blog except a handful of friends. :D

QuoteAnyway, the main thing I´m complaining about is the total lack of understanding for strategy and strategic gaming in current and future D&D.
I worry about that too and most of what I've heard about 4E suggests that this lack of understanding has had some unfortunate consequences for its design. Of course, I sometimes wonder if the designers are just reflecting a more widespread lack of understanding in the hobby as a whole. I fear that very few gamers today would even know what you were talking about or why it's an issue at all, so 4E is probably a better reflection of what contemporary gamers want or at least understand (not that I think that's a good thing).
 

Blackleaf

#81
February 05, 2008, 12:14:21 PM
Quote from: SettembriniAnyway, the main thing I´m complaining about is the total lack of understanding for strategy and strategic gaming in current and future D&D.

It remains to be seen whether they even produce a "game" at all, rather than an "activity" a group of players engages in.  Then again, the same could be said for a huge portion of the industry... ;)

David R

#82
February 05, 2008, 12:17:34 PM
Quote from: StuartThat doesn't make them genuinely "mature" games though. :)

Well I tend to view any game which moves beyond wish fullfilment as mature or at the very least dealing with mature themes but I guess we will have to leave it here....I fear soon we will begin a definition game and I don't have the stamina :D

Regards,
David R

Settembrini

#83
February 05, 2008, 12:17:54 PM
@James:
Let me kiss you.:haw:

The sad part is, that a problem with the strategic layers poses problems even for the people who don´t care about the strategy. I fear this will come back to haunt them.

It definitely destroyed Cthulhu as a healthy RPG and a decent campaign game. Especially in Germany. There was a Cthulhu Convention recently, and every single adventure was the old "first encounter with the mythos" setup.

It´s amazing how often people can play this. It´s retarded.

But with the severe contradictions and problems in the strategic layer of Cthulhu (as a game), it´s no wonder.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Settembrini

#84
February 05, 2008, 12:18:58 PM
Quote from: StuartIt remains to be seen whether they even produce a "game" at all, rather than an "activity" a group of players engages in.  Then again, the same could be said for a huge portion of the industry... ;)

Care to elaborate? I´m not sure I´m reading you correctly.
WoW?
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Blackleaf

#85
February 05, 2008, 12:24:23 PM
Quote from: David RWell I tend to view any game which moves beyond wish fullfilment as mature or at the very least dealing with mature themes but I guess we will have to leave it here....I fear soon we will begin a definition game and I don't have the stamina :D

Let's just say it's relative.  For example, Teletubbies is more mature than Boobah. :D

David R

#86
February 05, 2008, 12:31:34 PM
Quote from: Stuart..... Teletubbies is more mature than Boobah. :D

Well of course with the former's gay character and all....:eek:

Regards,
David R

flyingmice

#87
February 05, 2008, 12:31:57 PM
Quote from: David RWell I tend to view any game which moves beyond wish fullfilment as mature or at the very least dealing with mature themes but I guess we will have to leave it here....I fear soon we will begin a definition game and I don't have the stamina :D

Regards,
David R

I don't feel it's my job as a designer to dictate whether or not the group uses my game to "explore adult themes" or "indulge in juvenile wish fulfillment" or anything in between. Both should be valid choices. I try to leave room for both, but leave it up to the gaming group.

-clash
clash bowley * Flying Mice Games - an Imprint of Better Mousetrap Games
Flying Mice home page: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/flyingmice.html
Currently Designing: StarCluster 4 - Wavefront Empire
Last Releases: SC4 - Dark Orbital, SC4 - Out of the Ruins,  SC4 - Sabre & World
Blog: I FLY BY NIGHT

Blackleaf

#88
February 05, 2008, 12:35:14 PM
Quote from: SettembriniCare to elaborate? I´m not sure I´m reading you correctly.
WoW?

Starting with Chris Crawford's definition of "game" and following that up with my own thoughts on what makes a "game" as well as different types of players choices.

I think there are more than a few RPG / LARPs / Storygames that fall outside of "game" and would be better described as something else.

For example, if the players decisions can categorized as:

# Hollow decision: no real consequences
# Obvious decision: no real decision
# Uninformed decision: an arbitrary choice

That changes the nature of what the actual game being played is.

All games have a win and lose condition.  Many RPGs are just unclear about what the actual game being played is. ;)

David R

#89
February 05, 2008, 12:36:23 PM
Quote from: flyingmiceI don't feel it's my job as a designer to dictate whether or not the group uses my game to "explore adult themes" or "indulge in juvenile wish fulfillment" or anything in between. Both should be valid choices. I try to leave room for both, but leave it up to the gaming group.

Sure but I don't think I implied design choice anywhere...in fact I assumed folks would understand where I was coming from when I said earlier, gamers have been exploring "mature" themes - in case I was not clear -  whatever the game/system.

Regards,
David R
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