Quote from: jedimastert... But this sort of game is not epic enough in scope to be high fantasy.

At this stage I fail to see what exactly rides on obsessing over the correct definition of 'high fantasy'.

A good Middle-earth RPG IMO requires a strong 'good-versus-evil' background and, ideally, rules to reinforce this feature (this is essential to the setting, and is certainly part of any definition of 'high fantasy').  But it should also allow for the heroes (the PCs) to engage in quests, struggles, etc., that can vary widely in scope.

If you and gleichman don't want to call that 'high fantasy', whatever.

Quote from: jedimastertI have read enough of Pundit's posts to have a good idea of what his views are. If I am getting them wrong then he can correct me.

Well, that would require him to be consistent, and he's really not. You are however correct that only he can answer the question.

For my part, I feel there is a difference between running a campaign where the characters are center to play the center role in epic adventures and one where they have the chance to if they play well. Both can be High Fantasy.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat would be one to three concrete mini-campaign ideas for a Middle Earth High Fantasy game?

Another powerful servant of Melkor has been hiding and brooding in one of the deep dark places of the world that has been overlooked for ages. His plan is to free Melkor from his exile now that the Valar have withdrawn from Middle Earth. He is creating an army from the remnants of Sauron's and Saruman's  orc and uruk'hai forces as well as using some nasty creatures that have been forgotten in the bowels of the Earth. The freeing of Melkor could require a ritual and/or certain items scattered through out Middle Earth.

The PCs slowly stumble onto this plan and go out to thwart it.

This sort of thing is High Fantasy. Going on orc hunting parties so some farmers in the country side near Bree stop getting attacked is not.

Quote from: AkrasiaIf you and gleichman don't want to call that 'high fantasy', whatever.

I would agree that we've reached something of a impass. I'm going to continue to assume that epic adventures with high stakes are part of the High Fantasy setting and you won't.

It won't make communication very easy.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityGiven how many people you've interrogated how many times in this thread about their take on Middle Earth, it would help advance the discussion quite a bit if you yourself stepped up to the plate.

Ok, it will take a bit and I may need to do it later however.

I'll use some examples from my own campaign which generally bores people to death.

Quote from: AkrasiaAt this stage I fail to see what exactly rides on obsessing over the correct definition of 'high fantasy'.

A good Middle-earth RPG IMO requires a strong 'good-versus-evil' background and, ideally, rules to reinforce this feature (this is essential to the setting, and is certainly part of any definition of 'high fantasy').  But it should also allow for the heroes (the PCs) to engage in quests, struggles, etc., that can vary widely in scope.

If you and gleichman don't want to call that 'high fantasy', whatever.

I have no problem with that. A wide variety of scenarios from saving farmers from some orc raiders to returing the one ring to Mt.Doom can all be fun and memorable gaming experiences.

The arguments stem from expectations from a setting's source material. In the Hobbit a group of dwarves wants to kick a really powerful and nasty dragon out of their ancestral kingdom. The goal is to get back their underground kingdom and a massive stash of treasure as well. Several Armies show up to clame the loot after the dragon is slain. Again the themes are reclaiming a kingdom from evil against incredible odds. The treasure pay out makes most 20th level D&D players look like poppers. Many armies come to clash over the spoils. This is epic stuff. In Lord of the Rings we get into "saving the world" territory.

Two people can read the Hobbit and LotR and come away with much different feels. Some people want small scope adventures with Middle Earth as the backdrop. Others want to recreate the epic nature of the stories set in Middle Earth.

An open question here is to what degree you want the adventures to imitate the story of the Lord of the Rings -- as opposed to being set in Middle Earth.  Tolkien's writings set in Middle Earth are different from each other.  i.e. The Hobbit is different from the Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion is different from both of them.  I think a Middle Earth game should be able to cover all of them, as well as being able to cover other approaches.  

When I'm doing a game based on a licensed property, I often have some things that are similar to the original stories, but I also have some things that are quite distinct.

Quote from: gleichmanI would agree that we've reached something of a impass. I'm going to continue to assume that epic adventures with high stakes are part of the High Fantasy setting and you won't.

It won't make communication very easy.

I'm happy to include 'epic adventures' and 'high stakes' as part of 'High Fantasy'.  I'm just more liberal with respect to what kinds of things those labels can cover.  Thwarting a nefarious Umbarean plot against Minas Tirith, or taking part in the Kin-Strife by opposing the usurper, can be adequately 'high stakes' and 'epic' for me.

As for making communication easy, it hasn't been easy with you so far ...
:shrug:

Quote from: AkrasiaAs for making communication easy, it hasn't been easy with you so far ...
:shrug:

Given that you're quite willing to stretch the meaning of terms beyond any useful utility, and I'm not- I imagine that won't change.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityQuite frankly, that entry is boilerplate Campbellism of the blandest kind. We need specificity, not generic truisms.

Given how many people you've interrogated how many times in this thread about their take on Middle Earth, it would help advance the discussion quite a bit if you yourself stepped up to the plate.

What would be one to three concrete mini-campaign ideas for a Middle Earth High Fantasy game?

What would be the exact relation between the rules of that game and the High Fantasy theme as it emerges in those mini-campaign ideas? Complementary? Generative? How so?

Clearly you've given much thought to the matter. Do share.

Brian, clearly you've given much thought to the matter. Do share.

Quote from: gleichmanGiven that you're quite willing to stretch the meaning of terms beyond any useful utility, and I'm not- I imagine that won't change.

'Useful utility'? Nice pleonasm there.

Anyhow, I'm hardly "stretching the terms beyond any useful utility".  You're the first person I've ever encountered for whom any kind of campaign short of 'world saving' quests fails to qualify as 'high fantasy'.  That strikes me as absurdly restricting the term beyond any utility (at least for discussions of FRPGs).

The fact of the matter is that I've never had any problem communicating with others using the term 'high fantasy' as I've defined it, so it certainly has plenty of utility for me and my interlocutors.  It is a term that meaningfully distinguishes certain kinds of fantasy campaigns from 'low fantasy', 'dark fantasy', 'sword and sorcery', and others.  So it has plenty of utility for me.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat would be one to three concrete mini-campaign ideas for a Middle Earth High Fantasy game?

Here's a couple of examples from my campaign that shows two different approaches I've used. There's quite a number actually, the game has a long real world history. The second is les epic than the first, but within line with High Fantasy to my mind.


1. Various former servants of Morgoth (including Sauron and his minions) hit upon a plan to extinguish the light of the Sun and the Moon using recovered gems that Ungoliant belched back up in her feeding fenzy after the death of the two trees. The adventure ran the range from early hints that agents of darkness were looking for something (the gems of course, scattered across the world), to races against them to prevent elements of the plan, to a final battle at the ritual site against forces commanded in person by the Witch King.

2. A story line that ran throughout a number of years real time which chronicled the growth of a PC from the only survivor of an attack on a small village by the Witch King and elements of his army. The arc ended (as was intended) when our new hero confronted the Dragon ally the Witch King has brought under his control. In between was all the quest and events of growth one expect including those for gaining the tools and position necessary to actually contend with the Drake. If the player had failed, the North Kingdom would have fallen more than a couple of hundred years too soon and the Witch King would have owned the north. No Shire, no hobbit to find the Ring thousands of years hence, etc. etc. Redemption was actually a major part of this storyline, but in a foreshadowing way with respect to the "End Days" of Middle Earth. If we ever play that out, that would actually come up...


Now most of the time, it's individual adventures more like the Hobbit. Connected to the grand themes of Middle Earth yes, very much so. But only obviously so in hind sight or to those looking for it. Like the works, basically everything evil can be traced back to the same source (Morgoth).

Given that it's a RPG, many adventures are simply in the setting to provide flavor, context, back story, and growth into epic arcs like those above. Often the players have no idea what the actual importance of any specific thing would be. That was very much the case in the second example until the arc approach its end, less so in the first.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat would be the exact relation between the rules of that game and the High Fantasy theme as it emerges in those mini-campaign ideas? Complementary? Generative? How so?

I'm of the school that mechanic rules are highly unlikely to bring out the themes found in High Fantasy. People instead are needed for that. Thus control here is at the GM and player level.

Rather the rule design for the campaign focused on avoiding elements that would conflict with the themes and or the visible physics of the setting. Thus using an advancement system that prevented unrestrained power growth because in-game campaign lengths would cover generations of characters, a combat system that allowed for unarmored combatants as a reasonable choice as well as allow for the inexperienced new comer to battle alongside aged veteran PCs against evil hordes, etc.

A very non-Forge like approach.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityClearly you've given much thought to the matter. Do share.

I detect sarcasm, but I've answered anyway just in case it was a honest question. It's hard for me tell sometimes with just the written word.

Quote from: AkrasiaThe fact of the matter is that I've never had any problem communicating with others using the term 'high fantasy' as I've defined it, so it certainly has plenty of utility for me and my interlocutors.

I could say the same. Is there really any point in continuing this exchange between us? I currently don't see any likely positive outcome.

Quote from: gleichman... Is there really any point in continuing this exchange between us?...

Nope.  :cheers:

Quote from: gleichmanI could say the same. Is there really any point in continuing this exchange between us? I currently don't see any likely positive outcome.

It's amusing me anyhow.