Quote from: Levi KornelsenHow far a change makes for "fundamental", in your head, though?

Not to wake a screaming thingy, but some story-type-games are at the point now where I'd call them "fundamentally different" from old-school D&D, while still calling them RPGs (others would prefer to not call them RPGs, but whatever).  That is, the base expectations are not the same, and if you walk in with a regular set of expectations, those game just don't go.

That far?  Less far?  Even more out there?

Eh?  Why are you bringing up story games -- which are mostly empty of educational content from what I've seen -- and ignoring the actual examples that I've mentioned?  

I had mentioned examples like GURPS histories and Traveller, and noted examples like Chris Rutkowsky's superheroes game and the curriculum o fthe Danish Oesterskov school (which I don't have details on).  I'd also mentioned Rebecca Thomas' Role Play Workshop.  Brian David Phillips recommended Call of Cthulhu, Fringeworthy, Ghostbusters, and Star Wars based on his experience using RPGs in English conversation classes.  

I don't think those are the limits of the range, though.  It's not like only one particular style or type of RPG can be educational.

Quote from: jhkimEh?  Why are you bringing up story games -- which are mostly empty of educational content from what I've seen -- and ignoring the actual examples that I've mentioned?

Because, frankly, I've never seen any of those game specifically played to educate.

They are books where preparation to play (for entertainment) can be educational, yes.  Where the books themselves contain material which can teach and prompt further learning, yes.

But the actual process of playing isn't specifically an educational affair.

EDIT: I'm on pretty shaky ground here when talking about english-second-language, I'll admit - in that case, the process of play sure does look like educational practice.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenBecause, frankly, I've never seen any of those game specifically played to educate.

They are books where preparation to play (for entertainment) can be educational, yes.  Where the books themselves contain material which can teach and prompt further learning, yes.

But the actual process of playing isn't specifically an educational affair.

So it's not just that you haven't personally see cases like these, but you actually can't imagine how learning would take place during play itself?  Let me try some more examples:

1) In a GURPS historical game, you can see how there is historical information in the book.  Surely it isn't so hard to picture that there could be more historical material that comes up in play?  Actually talking to NPCs and each other in-character can make players think about how many parts of life worked.

2) In Traveller, like in any science class, simply reading the material in a book is different from actually using it.  So when the players figure out how long it takes their 1G thrust starship to reach its' destination, that provides something different than just reading the rules.  Similarly, actually exploring a star system, processing given data to make decisions is different than reading the rules for how star systems are generated.  

Even lacking additional material, though, play can illustrate and help internalize information in the book -- i.e. it may be one thing for there to be a map and descriptions in the book, but it is quite different to study the map and discuss in-character about where the party should go, and hear what they encounter.

Quote from: Kyle AaronBecause I've yet to hear of a gamer ask their GM to educate them.

I think there's a reasonable intersection between games and some degree of education.

0) Games can certainly be used educationally -- I'm thinking about war games, obviously, but it's not uncommon to find games (roleplaying or otherwise) in classroom settings

1) As a player, I've been (happily) surprised and impressed when the GM came to the table with something really interesting and fact-based

2) As a GM, I often do a lot of research and learn all kinds of cool things

This matches my experience with books and movies that open my eyes to real events or facts without compromising their entertainment value. And I'll point out that I didn't just "feel educated"  -- in some cases I've been in class where popular fiction was used as part of the curriculum because the professional educator felt that the content was specific and valuable in an educational way.

Here's my take on this: the intersection between traditional, primarily recreational roleplaying and education is not about the game or (even) about the act of roleplaying. It's entirely a function of what the people in the game want out of it and how the dynamic between them works. For my part, when the GM comes to the table armed with a lot of well researched facts and background based in real history, I find myself gratified. When I learn new words or concepts in a game context, I'm pleased... if the GM was "educating" me at the expense of my enjoyment of the game, I'd probably drop the game like a bad habit.

What about the concept of games designed specifically to be educational?

We've seen it tried before with, perhaps, the most effort being spent in trying to make video games educational. I would say it's been -- to a large extent -- a failure with a few middling successes (Typing of the Dead, or whatever, being the closest thing I'm aware of to a game that's fun to play and actually teaches a usable skill).

My guess is that RPG attempts would run into many of the same issues and would tend to compromise both their educational and recreational mission with some, perhaps, succeeding to a degree in one or the other.

They'd probably be the kinds of games well meaning parents would buy for their teenagers in the hopes that they'd spend their time productively... if you know what I mean.

Cheers,
-E.

I forgot about another educational role-playing thing I did for about six years, four in high school and two in college - Model United Nations! You roleplay being a delegate to the United Nations from a country to a committee discussing 1-2 international issues. You have to research the country's stance and argue it, and interact politically, and with the rules of procedure, and so on. Then at the end people get awards for best/most accurate portrayal of their country and the goals they accomplished. I helped run the Security Council simulation in college, it was an absolute blast for the kids and for the organizers.

Roleplaying is a method, that is used MAINLY and in ORDERS of MAGNITUDES more often in education/training than as a game.

Our hobby shares this method with those training/educational techniques.

Our hobby calls itself "RPG", which is just a name. It does not encompass ALL things using the method or roleplay. Because that would be inane.

Our hobby could as well be called Dongdaloppola. It has as much in common with the training techniques as a game of Risk has with the Royal Airforce planning room from the battle of Britain.