And yet when the dust settled, Coca-Cola was still King of Sodas.

Quote from: James McMurrayAnd yet when the dust settled, Coca-Cola was still King of Sodas.

Ummmm...yeah....after they had to abandon the New Coke and go back to "Coca-Cola Classic" as it then became known...

Quote from: James J SkachWhy did Coke change? To be Hip and Edgy? To go after the competition? To refresh the image?

And what did people demand? Go back to the old formula...

Exactly.  And as James McMurray pointed out above, Coca-Cola stayed on top no matter what they did.  So will D&D.

The corporate analogies are weirdly apt.  Now that D&D is a corporate IP of Hasbro, they can -- and probably will -- change the formula of the product regularly to meet shifting market focus.  It'll always be essentially "D&D", but the flavor will change over time in order to maximise profits.  That's what the game is there to do now.

So, we're back at one of the earliest questions to arise in this thread:  Are we talking about there being a better functional game, or a better selling market competitor?  If it's the former, then the answer is highly subjective, but will probably lie with a third party derivative of the SRD.  If it's the latter, then it's a matter of corporate sponsorship/ownership to even enter the race.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaExactly.  And as James McMurray pointed out above, Coca-Cola stayed on top no matter what they did.  So will D&D.

Correction - not "no matter what they did." If that were the case, they could have just stayed with the New Coke.

But they could not.  The backlash and the bad "reviews" were eating away at the bottom line.  So some smart young man who some day will be working for George Bailey, got the bright idea of having two brands - New Coke and Coke Classic.  Then they quietly let New Coke die off.

See? They couldn't do whatever they wanted and keep on top. They ignored what people said - which was "what the fuck is the matter with the Coke I'm drinking now" for the most part - and got their asses handed to them.

None of which is to say this will happen, or I'd like it to happen, or whatever.  Only that it can happen. Hell, look at Microsoft and Vista.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe corporate analogies are weirdly apt.  Now that D&D is a corporate IP of Hasbro, they can -- and probably will -- change the formula of the product regularly to meet shifting market focus.  It'll always be essentially "D&D", but the flavor will change over time in order to maximise profits.  That's what the game is there to do now.

Beyond the New Coke / Coca-Cola Classic comparison, I don't think the analogy carries on.

"Coke" is the primary money earner for the Coca-Cola Company.

"D&D" the RPG is *not* the primary money-earner for WotC... and WotC is only part of Hasbro, and is *not* the primary money earner for Hasbro.

D&D to Hasbro is nothing like Coke to the Coca-Cola Company.

Edit:  The shifting of some elements in D&D could have more to do with developing unique Intellectual Property rather than following market trends.  "Tiefling" is IP of WotC.  "Gnome" is not.

Quote from: StuartEdit:  The shifting of some elements in D&D could have more to do with developing unique Intellectual Property rather than following market trends.  "Tiefling" is IP of WotC.  "Gnome" is not.

That is salient.  And so annoying.

Quote from: StuartEdit:  The shifting of some elements in D&D could have more to do with developing unique Intellectual Property rather than following market trends.  "Tiefling" is IP of WotC.  "Gnome" is not.

Hah!  See?  See?

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHah!  See?  See?

The development of that IP could be for reasons other than success in the RPG itself.  Marvel and DC Comics run their publishing businesses at a loss as sort of IP R&D departments.  They make their money with all the other things they do with that IP.

Hasbro may have similar thoughts for WotC and D&D.  Let them run at a loss, if they can turn out some IP they can use for more profitable things elsewhere.

If we're going to use this soda-pop analogy  - the better question is : Whats the gaming equivalent to Mountain Dew???

When I was younger I worked the inevitable Fast Food jobs, also sold drinks at a local Film Society when we played movies.

 The numnber one best selling brown cola that people ask for is Coca Cola ("Gimme a coke.")

...but the number one lemon-lime flavored green caffeinated soda is MOUNTAIN DEW.
 At least three time Coke Inc has tried to beat that fact.
 Most people do not go after Pepsi at the store, they go after tjhe Pepsi company product Mt. Dew (and all its variations)

Whenever there is a sale at KROGERS on Pepsi products - Mt. Dew and all its variations sell out first.


 So, with that in mind ,  What is the game equivalent to Mountain Dew?


- Ed C.

Nice one, Koltar.  The first answer that popped into my mind was...  well let's just say that I then suddenly realized it was a very clever leading question that you posed.

Quote from: James J SkachCome on over and chat - there's a general gaming forum there, too...

Will do.

Back on topic. Ian's post and the subsequent exchanges is pretty spot on. I find Stuart's take on the IP issue pretty interesting. I remember reading....maybe it was James Skach's post, that 4E was merely a holding pattern until Hasbro decides to make a more intensive play for the computer games market...

Regards,
David R

Of course a game could seriously compete with D&D 4E.  In fact, I'm betting there will come a game that will actually topple 4E.

D&D 5e
 
Or have we done that joke already?

Quote from: David RWill do.

Back on topic. Ian's post and the subsequent exchanges is pretty spot on. I find Stuart's take on the IP issue pretty interesting. I remember reading....maybe it was James Skach's post, that 4E was merely a holding pattern until Hasbro decides to make a more intensive play for the computer games market...

Regards,
David R

Yup, that was me.  I doubt I'm the only one who has thought it. But it makes sense.  When you're blind-sided by competition that's so far ahead you can't immediately react, you take baby steps to try to keep your base but move them towards your new version of the competition's approach - so that you can compete on their terms later..

And with the IP position Stuart points out, it makes even more sense.

What Hasbro really wants to be, 5 years from now, is WoW with D&D IP....

My point is I think that's a mistake.  By then, WoW will have it's own Brand recognition (how many geeky fantasy CRPG's do you recall having commercials like the WoW ones?) that will make D&D the fucking underdog in that market.

And while they move in that direction, I don't see why someone else couldn't move into the market position now held by D&D because by then, it won't be D&D the way most TTRPG players know and think about it, IMHO.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkOf course a game could seriously compete with D&D 4E.  In fact, I'm betting there will come a game that will actually topple 4E.

D&D 5e
 
Or have we done that joke already?

I think D&D 5e is going to be a pretty cool, well constructed, well thought out MMORPG. And I think it will kick 4e's ass.

The question is, will it make a dent in the TTRPG market.  I think Hasbro/WotC is leaving that market - or at least wants to.

I agree with you 100% James and I esp liked the way you linked your views with Stuart's point....a connection I think is esp relevent which is why I brought it up

Quote from: James J SkachAnd while they move in that direction, I don't see why someone else couldn't move into the market position now held by D&D because by then, it won't be D&D the way most TTRPG players know and think about it, IMHO.

Yeah, which is why I think the only rpg which can compete with 4E is D&D....that is if 4E falls flat.... if 4E does not attract any new gamers and the existing user base rejects the system....which is where D20 Haven comes in....remember, it's better to be a Dragon's Foot, than a Fawn's Paw...

Regards,
David R