One of my concerns about 4e is that it will be very difficult to play a "gritty fantasy"/low magic campaign.  I know that many people on these forums have expressed discontent because they feel that 4e is turning characters into "super heroes."  While I partially disagree with this, I realize that there is a legitimate complaint there.

Personally, I find subtle magic far more interesting than flashy magic.  I'm far more interested in enchanters and diviners than I am in fire-blasting evokers and army-raising necromancers.  These things, to me, are what wizards do in "gritty fantasy": they do not participate in combat that much; their power is outside of combat.

In 4e, however, wizards/warlocks seem (key word: seem) to be relegated to making things explode during combat.  Oh, sure, there will be rituals and such for divinations, but wizards seem to be evokers in combat.  Unfortunately, this cripples the possibility for a "gritty fantasy" game—the wizard hurling fireballs left and right before blasting his enemies with a spray of ice screams Eberron high magic to me.

Technically, one could create a "gritty fantasy" game by disallowing magic classes, but this takes away the possibility of any type of magic (unless the rituals for divinations can be learned via feats).  Additionally, wizards not participating is hardly fun for the player who is the wizard.  Shooting a crossbow and missing every time just isn't entertaining.

So, here's what I'd like to hear from you guys:

1. What are your ideas about "gritty fantasy"?  What do you consider to fall into that category?

2. How would you personally employ "gritty fantasy" so that it would be fun for all the players?

3. Based on what we've heard about 4e, how would you alter the game so that you could maintain the feel of "gritty fantasy"?

Quote from: B.T.1. What are your ideas about "gritty fantasy"?  What do you consider to fall into that category?

They seem to be pretty close to yours. More Conan, less Driz'zt.

Quote2. How would you personally employ "gritty fantasy" so that it would be fun for all the players?

With Warhammer FRP, giving each PC a small chunk of advances to get past the starting "takes 3 hours for 3 PCs to kill 1 Lizardman" hurdle.

Quote3. Based on what we've heard about 4e, how would you alter the game so that you could maintain the feel of "gritty fantasy"?

I wouldn't. I'd use an older edition (probably BECMI) or WFRP instead. I'm not a fan of jumping through the hurdles necessary to make a game fit a power level it wasn't designed for, especially when there are lots of readily available alternatives.

Although I have to admit that my Scion campaign started the PCs out as slightly better than mere mortals, but that system scales down better than it sounds like 4e will.

Agree with James.  I wouldn't use 4e for gritty fantasy, nor do I use 3e for that matter.  If I want gritty fantasy I use Warhammer.  It's simple as that.  It's the right tool for the job.  You don't have to make any concessions it just is.

Quote from: James McMurrayI wouldn't. I'd use an older edition (probably BECMI) or WFRP instead. I'm not a fan of jumping through the hurdles necessary to make a game fit a power level it wasn't designed for, especially when there are lots of readily available alternatives.

I'm on board with this.  Why try to fit a square peg into a round hole?

Use the right tool for the job.

D&D is not a universal system.  D&D is good for playing... D&D.  It seems that, traditionally, it was gritty for the first 3 levels of play.  Then it becomes heroic. 3e is never really gritty, just not quite heroic, at low levels - however, you can reduce its power level by limiting access to magic, magic items in particular.  With 4e, the grit appears to have been eliminated entirely and difficult to add to the game as power appears to be inherent to the character, not their items.

For me - the Black Company novels are gritty - Conan is a bit too tousled and tanned.

Before WFRP we'd play Maelstrom or houseruled Dragonquest (those crit tables - harsh as !) - always hardbitten roguish scum, rebels, faithless priests and mercenaries

What's the Warhammer system like (aside from "gritty")?

It has classes and races similar to D&D, but classes scale from Ratcatcher to Chaos Champion. You start in a Basic class and buy statups and skills/talents with xp. Once you've bought everything the class offers you can spend a little more XP to follow the class's exit path, either into another basic class or an Advanced class. In this way you accumulate stat ups and special abilities.

Almost all die rolls are %, with the player trying to roll under their skill total. Penalties and bonuses in increments of 10% apply. Die rolls that aren't percentile are xd10, totalled to reach a target number. This is most frequently used to cast spells.

Spellcasting is dangerous. Merely trying to cast a spell can give you insanity points. If you roll doubles (or triples, or more) you suffer Tzeentch's Curse, which is basically a chaos manifestation. That's for Arcane magic. Other types of magic have their own risks and weaknesses.

Using magic can get you lynched just about anywhere.

Apart from that it plays a lot like D&D, with the setting giving a lot of emphasis to a grim world of dirt and sludge being slowly invaded by creatures of pure Chaos.

Almost forgot, instead of hit points you have Wounds, usually more than 8 but less than 20. Armor and Toughness both act as damage reduction. Once you're at 0 wounds attacks start dealing criticals, which is how you die, lose limbs, etc. Healing is readily available, as long as someone takes a class with Heal as a skill, and has a high stat. Magical healing is also possible, but to do it well you need to go into at least 3 classes. It's uncommon for people to be at 0 wounds a few minutes after a fight, but dpending on the combat they might not be at full health.

Quote from: B.T.1. What are your ideas about "gritty fantasy"?  What do you consider to fall into that category?

Low-magic, or dangerous magic. No heroic destinies or legends fulfilled. Death is always a possibility. Never sure who you can trust. Eschews white hats and black hats.

RPG games and settings: WFRP, Conan RPG, the Wilderlands, Thieves World, Lankhmar.

Quote from: B.T.2. How would you personally employ "gritty fantasy" so that it would be fun for all the players?

First, you need the right players. They have to consider escaping from tight places with their skin intact as a victory. It helps to have a dark sense of humour.

Try to evoke the proper atmosphere - be it dangerous, exotic, grim, or scummy. Reward them for thinking of imaginative ways to overcome obstacles, rather than optimizing their powers.

Quote from: B.T.3. Based on what we've heard about 4e, how would you alter the game so that you could maintain the feel of "gritty fantasy"?

From what I've heard about 4e, it isn't the right game for gritty fantasy. Try an earlier edition of D&D using the Wilderlands. Or the Conan RPG. Or as others have suggested, WFRP might be your best bet.

If you are going to use 4e, you should at least try to customize the magic system to make spell failure a real possibility, with perilous consequences for the casters.

Quote from: B.T.What's the Warhammer system like (aside from "gritty")?

It's become our house game of choice.

James pegged a lot of the system, so I'm just echoing him here.

As far as careers go, you can either pick your beginning Career or go with the way it's written to be played: you roll randomly and what you roll is what you were before you embarked on your heroic, gritty quest (or still are and do when not adventuring). As you gain XP you slowly increase your stats, buy into new classes (which flows well with roleplaying - you can buy into any Basic Career at any given time for 200 XP) to reflect what you're currently doing in the world. In addition to Basic Careers, there are Advanced Careers, careers that you can't just buy into at a whim or start as- they are more specialized and powerful.

I like how Hit Location is weaved right into the percentile roll you roll to hit: whatever you rolled to hit you reverse to see where you hit. So if you rolled a 12% to hit you also hit hit-location 21 (which I think is the Left Arm, but I could be wrong). It's smooth. Then you roll a d10 for damage, adding whatever damage modifiers you have to that roll. Everything is a d10. I've actually taken to rolling my To-Hit roll and a red d10 all at once; three dice tossed at the same time, so if I hit I see where I hit right away and for how much damage.

The game can be brutal and gritty, but Fate Points are an equalizer. If you die you can spend a Fate Point to not be dead (Fate Points also perform other functions). The number of Fate Points you have determines your Fortune Points as well - the number of rerolls your character can spend in a day/session (depending on how you play), perform an extra action, etc..

The Magic System is actually my favorite magic system out there. No spell slots or magic points. You can cast as much as you like. The limiting factor is that screwing up a spell can lead to insanity or mutation... or worse. There's nothing worse than a Wizard screwing up a spell and a gate to the Chaos Realm opening up, Daemons pouring forth. Mmm. Good times. Rolling doubles, triples, or quadruples on the d10's you roll to cast is what determines the severity of the mishap.

The setting is gritty, brutal and rife with dark humor. I tend to make my players watch Jabberwocky before I run the game, since the vibe of that flick strikes me as rather Warhammer-ish.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaI like how Hit Location is weaved right into the percentile roll you roll to hit: whatever you rolled to hit you reverse to see where you hit. So if you rolled a 12% to hit you also hit hit-location 21 (which I think is the Left Arm, but I could be wrong).

This is one of the few things about the system that I don't like. Reversing the numbers gives my borderline dyslexia fits sometimes, and it also means that as your chance to hit changes, your possible hit location chances also change slightly. The second part isn't really noticable in play, but offends the tiny theoretical mathematician living in the back of my brain.

The other thing I don't like about the system is the whiff factor. A starting character might have a 35% to hit someone with an attack. However, if that person has a shield or took a defensive stance, they get to try to parry, at a similar chance. If they've got Dodge Blow, they can also try to dodge the attack (I don't remember if you can try both on one attack, but just having one is enough to slow a lot of things down).

The comment I made about taking 3 people 3 real-time hours to kill a lizard man came straight from our first WFRP session of this campaign. :mad:

The same holds true for other skills. If your character starts with a (for example) Haggling skill, he's probably got ~20-30% chance of successfully negotiating with someone. As written, it would take farmers forever to seed fields, craftsmen way too long to build the plows, and some food would spoil before the unluckiest of cooks managed to roll a success.

Despite that though, it's a great system and a fun game. The whiff factor goes away pretty quickly once you've gotten your second career underway. After it's gone the game is a bumpy road to Coolsville that passes through some really cool scenery along the way.

Sounds like an interesting system.  Is there any way to regrow limbs?

There are rules for prosthetics, as well as prices. At best you'll get one of those mechanical claw hook. You can pick stuff up, but won't be doing a lot of things that require manual dexterity.

There's also a potion that restores lost limbs, but it has a chance of restoring the wrong one, so you may end up with two left arms or even a foot growing where your hand should be. It's suggested to have a barber surgeon nearby to amputate if things go wrong, otherwise you might get burned at the stake for having a chaos mutation.

Lots of options for gritty fantasy.

WFRP - as has been, and will be, mentioned many many times.  Rightly so.  Great game, either edition.

d20 Modern + Grim Tales - if you can't escape the d20 ghetto because of player resistance (or whatever) this is a very cool set of options for bringing the grim and gritty to d20 fantasy.

I like All Flesh Must Be Eaten + Dungeons and Zombies - standard Unisystem can be utterly lethal, and nothing says gritty like making a desperate stand against an endless horde of the undead.

Low level AD&D 1e, B/X, or BECMI (and presumably OD&D) are pretty grim.  Especially if played with really restrictive chargen (3d6, in order, no min-max), full on encumbrance rules, and limited magic-item availability.

I'm guessing that Koltar is going to pop-in and suggest GURPS.    (and he'd be right)

Fate Points can be spent to prevent the loss of a limb, but they disappear pretty fast. In our current campaign I think the group of PCs has something like 3 or 4 Fate Points spread out amongst 5 PCs. Most PCs start with 3 or 4.

The only setting with more grit than HarnWorld (which is rules independant) is sandpaper. Try the free stuff on //www.lythia.com for examples.