Steve Kenson appears to believe that 4e is getting a lot of its inspirations from Earthdawn:

QuoteD&D 4e = Earthdawn?


It's funny, but the more I hear about the forthcoming new edition of Dungeons & Dragons, the more I'm reminded of FASA's Earthdawn, first published a good 13-14 years ago now. (As an aside, I have no "inside" information here, I'm just speculating based on what's publicly known. Also, are you kidding me that //www.dungeonsanddragons.com doesn't redirect to the Wizards website? Seriously, WTF?)

The brilliance of Earthdawn (IMHO) was it took many of the D&D standbys and actually provided reasons for them to exist in its setting (apart from "they're necessary for the game"). For example, pockets of civilization hid out for over a century during a magical "Scourge" that nearly destroyed the world in fantasy bomb shelters called "kaers." Now those abandoned kaers are all over the place often filled with, you guessed it, monsters and lost treasures.

Let's compare some known facts:

• Saving Throws replaced with various Defense scores (so you "attack" someone's Reflex or Will Defense). Check.
• Spellcasters rolling to-hit with their spells versus the appropriate Defense score. Check.
• Spellcasters with repeat-usage "utility" spells. Check.
• Heroes have various "sources" of kewl powerz. Check.
• "Points of light" setting style: heroes venturing into the wilds between pockets of civilization. Check.
• Uber-epic levels of play, with heroes as truly superhuman at high levels. Check.
• A reptilian player character race (ED: T'skrang, 4e: Dragonborn). Check.

I'm just waiting to hear about the "innovation" of magic items linked to their wielder's legend, which grow in power along with them (one of my favorite Earthdawn ideas) and about the races of rock-people and faeries (like ED's Obsidimen and Windlings), and we're practically there.

Ah, Earthdawn, you were before your time.

The above, from Kenson's blog.

In any case, what do the resident Earthdawn fans think of that?

RPGPundit

QuoteI'm just waiting to hear about the "innovation" of magic items linked to their wielder's legend, which grow in power along with them (one of my favorite Earthdawn ideas) and about the races of rock-people and faeries (like ED's Obsidimen and Windlings), and we're practically there.

Apparently he never read Weapons of Legacy?

Quote from: RPGPunditIn any case, what do the resident Earthdawn fans think of that?

There are definite similarities, but I wouldn't draw much from it. There were tons of similarities between the changes in 3e and Rolemaster, and the devs insist they were all unintentional.

There are similarities between almost every single game system if you look close enough. I wouldn't see it as causality.

ED was a solid and fun system. At the time I really thought it was made to counter some of (what I percieved to be) the problems with AD&D 1e. They could do worse than use it as a template going forward. I think it would have been a better game though if the setting had been more implied than actual, because it suffered from some serious fluffbloat right from the beginning.

Kenson left out Elemental Horrors.

Prior to D&D 3, Earthdawn was my favorite, favorite game. I still own 4 copies of it, in fact. If the "setting" or "baseline" is close to Earthdawn's that is nothing but good. It would be really really cool if they had Janet Aulisio do some of the color plates for the new D&D. That would seal the deal.

That said, Earthdawn had some problems at the rules level, and was a bit hard to build adventures for. And it was a little too tied to the Barsaive setting. Near the end of the time it was in print, there was an informal survey on the mailing list and I seem to remember that most fans agreed-- they wanted to have a bit more authority over creating their own world. They didn't necessarily want Fasa's Barsaive, as cool as it was. (They may have just wanted their "own" Barsaive, or something else entirely).

So yeah, maybe. Earthdawn got fantasy exactly right in many ways.

It's probably just coincidence, but I find this fascinating. Earthdawn is a very good game.

Aos, Maw, have you seen the Classic edition from RedBrick?

Quote from: JongWKIt's probably just coincidence, but I find this fascinating. Earthdawn is a very good game.

Aos, Maw, have you seen the Classic edition from RedBrick?

No, I have not. What sets it apart from the earlier iterations?

Quote from: JongWKIt's probably just coincidence, but I find this fascinating. Earthdawn is a very good game.

Aos, Maw, have you seen the Classic edition from RedBrick?

Hey Jong, to your knowledge (since you have the books), are any of the people who were involved with ED also currently employed by WoTC?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHey Jong, to your knowledge (since you have the books), are any of the people who were involved with ED also currently employed by WoTC?

RPGPundit

I'm not Jong, but I have the books.

Louis Prosperi, Tom Dowd, and Michael Mulvihill are listed as the developers.  Greg Gorden is the credited Designer.

Bill Slavicek and Greg Gorden collaborated on Torg, IIRC.

-O

Quote from: RPGPunditHey Jong, to your knowledge (since you have the books), are any of the people who were involved with ED also currently employed by WoTC?

RPGPundit

I have no idea, but several well-known names appear:

QuoteOriginal Design: Greg Gorden
Original Development: Louis J. Prosperi
Game Concept: Christopher Kubasik, Greg Gorden, Jordan Weisman, Louis J. Prosperi, L. Ross Babcock III, Sam Lewis, Tom Dowd
Original Material: Achim Held, Allen Varney, Angel Leigh McCoy, Carl Sargent, Chris Hepler, Chris Ryan, Christopher Kubasik, Daniel Vitti, Diane Piron-Gelman, Jay Krob, Jennifer Brandes, John J. Terra, Kathleen E. Czechowski, Keith Graham, Loren Coleman, Louis J. Prosperi, Marc Gascoigne, Michael A. Mulvihill, Michael L. Jacobs, Mike Nielson, Neal A. Porter, Nicole Frein, Nigel D. Findley, Randall N. Bills, Richard Tomasso, Robert C. Charrette, Robert Cruz, Robert Fulford, Robin D. Laws, Sam Lewis, Sam Witt, Sean R. Rhoades, Shane Lacy Hensley, Steve Kenson, Teeuwynn Woodruff, Tom Dowd, Zach Bush

These are the people involved in the Classic edition by RedBrick, based on the game's 1st edition:

QuoteProduct Director: James D. Flowers
Line Developer: Carsten Damm
Development: Carlton W. Anderson, Carsten Damm, James D. Flowers, Joshua Harrison, Steven J. Black, Richard Vowles
Senior Editor: James D. Flowers
Additional Material: Attila Hatvágner, Bradley Robins, Carlton W. Anderson, Carsten Damm, James D. Flowers, Joshua Harrison, Lars Gottlieb, Louis J. Prosperi, Steven J. Black, Olav Wikan.
Special thanks to Nicholas Warcholak, Donovan Winch, and Jason U. Wallace for last minute assistance.
Associate Editors: Carsten Damm, Joshua Harrison

Quote from: James McMurrayThere are definite similarities, but I wouldn't draw much from it. There were tons of similarities between the changes in 3e and Rolemaster, and the devs insist they were all unintentional.

That said, John Tweet does claim that he was influenced by RuneQuest when it came to his contributions to 3E.

If 4e is (regardless of intent) a reworked and bugfree ED there's certainly some merit to it.  ED had some fantastic elements but had some wacky mechanics as well.  If 4e basically takes the good, and streamlines the bad it's got potential to be a solid game.  It won't be D20 by common standards it'll be a new beast entirely.  One that has CRPG like elements to it.  But and I've said this before it has potential to be a lot of fun.   Just a different form of fun from the current D20 system.

Yes, it seems like any LITERAL link with ED is pretty tenuous at best. It does seem, however, that D&D is taking on concepts that ED made a lot of use of.  Whether the roleplaying world will be more ready to accept them or not, we'll see.

RPGPundit

There's some reason to believe that the RP community will accept anything with the D&D label on it, based on sales over history.

One thing that made D&D3 such a great game was that it took some of the best lessons from previous games and combined them all into a great package. Combat is a synthesis of D&D, Fantasy Trip, and Champions; character build learns from Runequest; and there are lots of things that resemble some of the best parts of Palladium Fantasy, Rolemaster, and Champions as well.

My main concern about D&D 4 is basically that it will take too much from games like Earthdawn and Iron Heroes, which are good games for gamers of a certain kind, but pretty much leave the drunk frat house and high school stoner crowds behind. IMO D&D should be friendly to extremely casual play.

Quote from: James McMurrayApparently he never read Weapons of Legacy?

Would that be the same Weapons of Legacy that came out almost 20 years after Earthdawn's initial release?